Terminal Performance

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deerhunter338mag
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by deerhunter338mag » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:46 pm

mchughcb wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:10 pm
Starting at 2400fps at 200 yards its still above 1900 fps. So 250 fps would be the max to get reliable expansion. You may not be able to get those velocities in 308 but dropping down to 200gr might be better.
I have to agree with you there Chuck, be like putting a turbo on a 1.8l 4 cylinder engine and trying to pull 2 tonne caravan. Might move it, but its not going to get you far. Drop down to 180gr SST and get it going as hard as safely possible and send us the photos of the damage of how you turned your 308 into a 300wm. :dance:

https://youtu.be/osNWIP7tg3Y


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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by mchughcb » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:36 pm

Here is a 180gr SST shot from a 30-06 at 80m yesterday. What is left of the bullet was found in the meat on the opposite shoulder. Target was a big sambar hind at 80m. The deer managed to run 15m and crash and die. Lots of jelly meat damage on the front portion of the animal. There was only a tiny piece of the core of the lead found with the jacket. The rest was smashed to pieces. I don't have a scales with me but I'd estimate 60gr left.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by SPEEDY » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:18 pm

Rifletuner wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:10 pm
mchughcb wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:39 am
Great work there Bob. Here are the only Woodleigh 65C RNSP 220gr that I have recovered from a few hundred sambar. If these are the recovered ones then its fair to say that the ones that exited looked something like that too. Ranges are from 50m to 250m at all angles. If you read the list down then and the picture across then the weights correspond to the bullet. The last bullet is a 7mm Hornady interlock from my 7x57R into a Sambar front on at 80m. Retained weight was only the core at 38gr or 22%.

Woodleigh_65C_Sambar_Performance.JPG
Hi Charles. Thats great info. Any idea what velocity range your 220gn load is actually doing at the distances you are shooting? Just wondering because I have been thinking about trying the 220gn Woodleigh in my 308win based on your experience with that bullet on sambar from your 3006. Most people I have discussed it with tell me the bullet will be "too slow" from a 308 but I am not so sure that wold be the case. Certainly not what I would use for longer ranges, but based on your reported results I am thinking it could be a good option out to 200 yards or so.
I can tell you with on game performance I found the Sierra 220gn at 2300fps very good. Might have been 2200fps, but I did a write up in the reloading section if you search for it. (If your curios enough)
I've taken Fallow and Sambar with it from 30m to around 150m. I don't know about any further but 150m I recovers (my only recovered 220gn Sierra) and it still weighed about 190gn from memory.

I'm over fishing in Thailand at the moment but if you remind when I'm home I will weight and take some photos for you but it mushroomed very well at that range and speed.
I'm soft and I don't care. :dance:

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by deerhunter338mag » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:29 pm

mchughcb wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:36 pm
Here is a 180gr SST shot from a 30-06 at 80m yesterday. What is left of the bullet was found in the meat on the opposite shoulder. Target was a big sambar hind at 80m. The deer managed to run 15m and crash and die. Lots of jelly meat damage on the front portion of the animal. There was only a tiny piece of the core of the lead found with the jacket. The rest was smashed to pieces. I don't have a scales with me but I'd estimate 60gr left.
Told ya :lol: :dance:
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by Perdizhunter » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:23 pm

In 2017 , I decided to verify SST 180 grains , Field Performance
As I only hunt Wild Hogs , night Hunting using thermal devices , shooting distances are from 30 - 300 meters , and most at 100 meters
I shooted 50 wild hogs ( pure breed ) , biggest 160 kg , and most around 50-60 kg , always aimming shoulder .
My guns : - CZ 550 Varmint Kevlar ( 30 hogs ) SST 180 @ 2650 Ft/seg and a Benelli R1 (20 hogs) same Bullet @ 2550 Ft/sec., both In .308 Win
Every hog with a “hit” , was recovered . Only one running more than 70 meters ( almost a miss , a belly shot.)
Some bullets weren’t recovered . Only one bullet recovered that jacket came apart
SST 180 grains at this velocities Were very effective !!!

I have some pictures of recovered bullets , I”m gonna try to post them
619D06C3-32A9-41B5-A7F8-9DAAE412E367.jpeg
9EC26F11-29D3-4EDB-9ADB-9BBD3EDF7812.jpeg
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by Rifletuner » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:26 pm

SPEEDY wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:18 pm

I can tell you with on game performance I found the Sierra 220gn at 2300fps very good. Might have been 2200fps, but I did a write up in the reloading section if you search for it. (If your curios enough)
I've taken Fallow and Sambar with it from 30m to around 150m. I don't know about any further but 150m I recovers (my only recovered 220gn Sierra) and it still weighed about 190gn from memory.

I'm over fishing in Thailand at the moment but if you remind when I'm home I will weight and take some photos for you but it mushroomed very well at that range and speed.
Thanks. Found the reloading post. The performance on game with your 220gn Sierra load is what I would expect, but didnt have the data to verify. It would be good to see an update on the load with recovered projectiles when you get a chance.

I was really expecting to take a bit of a beating from the 220gn Woodleigh, but it is surprisingly comfortable to shoot. Seems like you fond much the same with the 220 Sierra.

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by mchughcb » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:47 pm

Perdizhunter wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:23 pm
In 2017 , I decided to verify SST 180 grains , Field Performance
As I only hunt Wild Hogs , night Hunting using thermal devices , shooting distances are from 30 - 300 meters , and most at 100 meters
I shooted 50 wild hogs ( pure breed ) , biggest 160 kg , and most around 50-60 kg , always aimming shoulder .
My guns : - CZ 550 Varmint Kevlar ( 30 hogs ) SST 180 @ 2650 Ft/seg and a Benelli R1 (20 hogs) same Bullet @ 2550 Ft/sec., both In .308 Win
Every hog with a “hit” , was recovered . Only one running more than 70 meters ( almost a miss , a belly shot.)
Some bullets weren’t recovered . Only one bullet recovered that jacket came apart
SST 180 grains at this velocities Were very effective !!!

I have some pictures of recovered bullets , I”m gonna try to post them

619D06C3-32A9-41B5-A7F8-9DAAE412E367.jpeg

9EC26F11-29D3-4EDB-9ADB-9BBD3EDF7812.jpeg
Outstanding work.

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by SPEEDY » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:05 pm

Rifletuner wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:26 pm
SPEEDY wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:18 pm

I can tell you with on game performance I found the Sierra 220gn at 2300fps very good. Might have been 2200fps, but I did a write up in the reloading section if you search for it. (If your curios enough)
I've taken Fallow and Sambar with it from 30m to around 150m. I don't know about any further but 150m I recovers (my only recovered 220gn Sierra) and it still weighed about 190gn from memory.

I'm over fishing in Thailand at the moment but if you remind when I'm home I will weight and take some photos for you but it mushroomed very well at that range and speed.
Thanks. Found the reloading post. The performance on game with your 220gn Sierra load is what I would expect, but didnt have the data to verify. It would be good to see an update on the load with recovered projectiles when you get a chance.

I was really expecting to take a bit of a beating from the 220gn Woodleigh, but it is surprisingly comfortable to shoot. Seems like you fond much the same with the 220 Sierra.
I actually stoped using them for a kind of funny reason, I found that for game like foxes they were too tough and switched back to the 165gn partition as i5s the do it all projectile.
I should load a few when I get home and give them another go, I actually have some 240gn woodleigh pills that I want to load up to see how fast I can launch them.
I'm soft and I don't care. :dance:

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by secondtry » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:05 am

mchughcb wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:47 pm
Perdizhunter wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:23 pm
In 2017 , I decided to verify SST 180 grains , Field Performance
As I only hunt Wild Hogs , night Hunting using thermal devices , shooting distances are from 30 - 300 meters , and most at 100 meters
I shooted 50 wild hogs ( pure breed ) , biggest 160 kg , and most around 50-60 kg , always aimming shoulder .
My guns : - CZ 550 Varmint Kevlar ( 30 hogs ) SST 180 @ 2650 Ft/seg and a Benelli R1 (20 hogs) same Bullet @ 2550 Ft/sec., both In .308 Win
Every hog with a “hit” , was recovered . Only one running more than 70 meters ( almost a miss , a belly shot.)
Some bullets weren’t recovered . Only one bullet recovered that jacket came apart
SST 180 grains at this velocities Were very effective !!!

I have some pictures of recovered bullets , I”m gonna try to post them

619D06C3-32A9-41B5-A7F8-9DAAE412E367.jpeg

9EC26F11-29D3-4EDB-9ADB-9BBD3EDF7812.jpeg
Outstanding work.
Yep. Recovered bullet porn is always interesting :D

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by mchughcb » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:40 am

When Bob finishes on 308. There is the 300 win.
300 win.jpg
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:41 am

Funny you should mention the 300 Win Mag, I am considering do some work with it next. The reason is more to get the higher velocity performance of the already tested bullets. The .308 Win seems to get along fine with almost any bullet at traditional hunting ranges. But when the range is extended all bets are off as you will see with the data. So far I have tested eight bullets in the 165/168 grain class, five hunting bullets and three match bullets all at 2600, 2200, and 1800 fps impact velocities. There were no surprises at 2600 fps the hunting bullets all did really well, but as velocity fell off, the hunting bullets began to perform erratically, and the match bullets actually outperformed the hunting bullets. I'm sure the match bullets would have trouble at 3,000 fps impact. Here are some pics of the ballistic gel as one of the match bullets goes through at the three velocities.
Sierra 168 MatchKing 2600 fps.png
Sierra 168 MatchKing 2200 fps.png
Sierra 168 MatchKing 1800 fps.png
The bullets I have tested so far are the 168 Hornady ELDM, 165 Hornady SST, 165 Nosler AB, 165 Nosler BT, 165 Nosler Partition, 168 Sierra MK, 168 Sierra TMK and 165 Sierra TGK.

Penetration averages 27" for all bullets at all velocities from a low of 14" for the Sierra 168 TGK to a high of 36.5" for the Nosler 165 AB.

Weight Retention averages 63% for all bullets at all velocities from a low of 38% for the Sierra 165 TGK at 2200 fps to a high of 94% for the same bullet at 1800 fps. This was the poorest performing bullet tested. It did really well at 2600 fps but had a structural failure at 2200 fps turning sideways and spilling the core for a very shallow 14" wound and then at 1800 fps creating a very narrow "pencil through" wound channel.

Depending upon the value you place on shock, penetration, weight retention, exit wound, conservation of venison, performance at close range, performance at long range, your weighting of these factors would guide you to very different bullet selections.

For use at long range I would rule out the Sierra 165 TGK and the 165 Nosler Accubond. The best performing bullets at long range were the Sierra 168 TMK, Hornady 168 ELDM, and Sierra 168 SMK. I'm particularly surprised by the performance of the SMK. A bad experience many years ago along with the constant warnings by Sierra that this bullet is not intended for hunting, left me with a strong bias against the SMK. However, it did very well at all impact velocities.

For ranges out to 450 yards the Nosler 165 Partition is really hard to beat, it combines very rapid expansion with deep penetration at all ranges but clearly performed better at close range. Due to it's flat base and less aerodynamic design it looses speed faster than the other bullets falling at 1800 fps at only 450 yards.

The Nosler 165 BT did really well at close range holding together and penetrating 28.75" but shed it's jacket at impact velocities of 2200 and 1800 fps penetrating 24 and 27.5' respectively so would still provide quick killing performance on deer sized game in my opinion.

My personal choice would be either the Sierra 168 TMK or Hornady 168 ELDM for long range use and then use careful shot selection (rear lung) at close range or use a dual loading with one of the other stouter bullets for close range work like the 165 Nosler Partition.

I'll provide photos of all in the following days.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:00 am

Sierra #4665 .308" 165 grain Tipped GameKing. (Revised, disregard previous data)

Diameter - .308"
Weight - 165 grains
Length - 1.405"
Base to Ogive - .775"
G1 BC - .530
Jacket Thickness - .050"-.018"
Tip Diameter - .145"
Hollow Point Diameter - .010

2600 FPS
Penetration - 27.5"
Retained Weight - 143.7 grains
Retained Weight % - 87.1%
Core Separation - No

2200 FPS
Penetration - 14"
Retained Weight - 62.7 grains
Retained Weight % - 38.0%
Core Separation - Yes

1800 FPS
Penetration - 31.5"
Retained Weight - 155.4 grains
Retained Weight % - 94.2%
Core Separation - No
fullsizeoutput_3cbd.jpeg
When impacting at 2600 fps this bullet performed really well with a balanced fragmentation and controlled expansion, high shock with adequate penetration to insure an exit on broadside medium weight game. However at 2200 fps the jacket fractured and spit the core which vered sharply and only penetrated 14", the shallowest penetration of any bullet tested. At 1800 fps the core and jacket held together but over penetrated with almost no shock effect and a very narrow, bullet diameter wound channel which would have resulted in a very slow killing wound unless the CNS was hit.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:24 am

Sierra #7768 .308" 168 grain Tipped MatchKing.

Diameter - .308"
Weight - 168 grains
Length - 1.330"
Base to Ogive - .620"
G1 BC - .536
Jacket Thickness - .020"
Tip Diameter - .145"
Hollow Point Diameter - .010

2600 FPS
Penetration - 17.5"
Retained Weight - 95.1 grains
Retained Weight % - 56.6%
Core Separation - Yes

2200 FPS
Penetration - 25.25"
Retained Weight - 120.9 grains
Retained Weight % - 72%
Core Separation - No

1800 FPS
Penetration - 34"
Retained Weight - 110.5 grains
Retained Weight % - 65.8%
Core Separation - No
fullsizeoutput_3cbf.jpeg
The Sierra 168 grain Tipped MatchKing performed really well at longer ranges and produced high shock at all velocities. Loss of venison would be high at 2600 fps impact unless a meatsaver, rear lung, neck or head shot was selected, shoulder shots should be avoided under 200 yards. An exit wound is likely at all velocities on broadside shots but flight distance should be very short as this would be a fast killing bullet. Consider also a dual loading using a more heavily constructed bullet for close range use reserving this one for 200 yards and beyond.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:47 am

Sierra #2200 .308" 168 grain MatchKing.

Diameter - .308"
Weight - 168 grains
Length - 1.230"
Base to Ogive - .654"
G1 BC - .462
Jacket Thickness - .020"
Tip Diameter - .075"
Hollow Point Diameter - .035"

2600 FPS
Penetration - 25.6"
Retained Weight - 81.5 grains
Retained Weight % - 48.5%
Core Separation - Yes

2200 FPS
Penetration - 31"
Retained Weight - 78.4 grains
Retained Weight % - 61.5%
Core Separation - No

1800 FPS
Penetration - 31"
Retained Weight - 119.7 grains
Retained Weight % - 71.3%
Core Separation - Yes
fullsizeoutput_3cc1.jpeg
The Sierra 168 grain MatchKing was the big surprise to me in this testing, it performed well above expectations. At close range the bullet completely fragmented but into large pieces of led and jacket shrapnel which produced very high shock yet it also performed really well at longer ranges and produced high shock at all three tested velocities. An exit wound is likely at all velocities on broadside shots but flight distance should be very short as this would be a fast killing bullet. Even though it shed the jacket at 1800 fps, it was able to produce relatively high shock as can be seen in the screen shots of the ballistic gel.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:53 am

Nosler #16330 .308" 165 grain Partition.

Diameter - .308"
Weight - 165 grains
Length - 1.165"
Base to Ogive - .580"
G1 BC - .410
Jacket Thickness - .050"- .015"
Tip Diameter - .140"
Hollow Point Diameter - None

2600 FPS
Penetration - 34"
Retained Weight - 96.1 grains
Retained Weight % - 58.2%
Core Separation - No, front section was shed but not the base section

2200 FPS
Penetration - 26"
Retained Weight - 101.5 grains
Retained Weight % - 61.5%
Core Separation - No, front section was shed but not the base section


1800 FPS
Penetration - 27.5"
Retained Weight - 96.1 grains
Retained Weight % - 58.2%
Core Separation - No, front section was shed but not the base section
fullsizeoutput_3cc3.jpeg
The Nosler 165 grain Partition performed very well at all velocities, providing an ideal balance of fragmentation and retained weight. This is a bullet I have taken many game animals with and know it's performance well. The only one I have ever recovered from a game animal was a bull elk I shot at about 150 yards through the rear portion of the right shoulder. The bullet destroyed both lungs and exited the off rib cage but was captured by the thick hide. It is a clean killing bullet but does produce a moderate amount of venison loss. It's only shortcoming is that the relatively low BC which means it hits the 1800 fps at just 450 yards which limits it's long range effectiveness. I have personally experienced this at greater than 500 yards with slow kills. It is best used at 450 yards and closer out of the 308 and makes an ideal dual load for use at close range when paired with one of the softer match bullets for use at long range. In my rifle it shoots within 1 MOA of the 168 grain Sierra Tipped MatchKing and the Hornady 168 ELDM.
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