Terminal Ballistics of Long Range Bullets

[icebug]

Great report Bob!
Also, I'm happy for your wife 'cause she got her portable card table back.

[turner.jc1]

Thanks for taking the time and effort to conduct and post your results Bob.

I've just started using 168gr VLDs in my 7mm Rem Mag. I shot 3 Sika deer last week between 100 - 200 yards, all dropped on the spot. In the UK we get lots of reports of VLDs passing straight through animals with no expansion. I find this a bit odd however, as all you US hunters rave about them...

[trazman]

In the UK we get lots of reports of VLDs passing straight through animals with no expansion. I find this a bit odd however, as all you US hunters rave about them...

I have experienced this, but only on roe deers with my .300wm using 190gr hunting vlds. However this is normal since the bullet penetrates 2-3" before expanding. On bigger animals like wild boar and red deer I have allways had good expansion.

[turner.jc1]

In the UK we get lots of reports of VLDs passing straight through animals with no expansion. I find this a bit odd however, as all you US hunters rave about them...

I have experienced this, but only on roe deers with my .300wm using 190gr hunting vlds. However this is normal since the bullet penetrates 2-3" before expanding. On bigger animals like wild boar and red deer I have allways had good expansion.

Good to know Trazman. I intend on using them on a Barbary Sheep hunt in January.

[trazman]

You can also see the effect here:

[bbvideo=560,315]https://youtu.be/3FhMkFPMc3Y[/bbvideo]

[turner.jc1]

So consensus is that high SD Bergers need more target resistance than a roe deer offers in order to initiate expansion. By this same token then they should be unreliable in terms of expansion at long range/low velocity… But they seem to be used to great effect for long range hunting. Maybe target resistance is more to do with body weight/construction than the projectiles impact velocity? But then that seems counter intuitive to me also…. I wish Berger had left the jackets at their original thickness!

Speaking of jacket thickness has anyone tried JLK bullets? They use J4 jackets and are I think the same design (jacket thinkness?) as the original Bergers so could offer the same original terminal performance as Bergers? JLK say that their bullets are good for hunting too...

[stokesrj]

The Berger Hunting VLD's use the original J4 jacket therefore the original thickness. I'm at a loss to explain what Tomaz has documented. I've seen similar results with the Sierra SMK's and the thicker target Jacket use on non hunting Berger VLD's, Hornady Custom Competition and similar. The Berger Hunting VLD should open even on a roe deer. Look at the 10% ballistic Gel block and impose a roe deers chest cavity, it should be a very nasty exit and drop the animal in it's tracks, but it didn't. I wish I understood why.

[turner.jc1]

I believe that Berger began using thicker jackets in their hunting bullets around 2011/2012,after US hunters began using VLDs on bigger animals and received complaints of bullet blow ups and 'blue mist' in fast twist custom rifles.

Natan Foster discusses the issue on his ballistic studies site:

"Note: Update 1 Jan 2011. Berger have recently thickened the Jackets on the VLD line of projectiles due to concerns from hunters that the VLD was suffering mid air bullet blow up (perhaps due to aggressive twist rates in custom rifles?). The new 168 and 180 grain VLD projectiles are very stout and occasionally perform in a similar manner to the Sierra MatchKing, failing to produce broad, fast killing wounds. The 168 grain VLD is less effected by the thicker jacket, meeting enough resistance on medium game as to ensure fragmentation. Wounding at close ranges is excellent, kills are fast and clean and penetration is excellent. Killing is delayed at 1000 yards (below 1800fps)."

JLK say that they use the original J4 jacket so I wonder if they behave as the original Bergers did….?

[stokesrj]

I believe that Berger began using thicker jackets in their hunting bullets around 2011/2012,after US hunters began using VLDs on bigger animals and received complaints of bullet blow ups and 'blue mist' in fast twist custom rifles.

Natan Foster discusses the issue on his ballistic studies site:

"Note: Update 1 Jan 2011. Berger have recently thickened the Jackets on the VLD line of projectiles due to concerns from hunters that the VLD was suffering mid air bullet blow up (perhaps due to aggressive twist rates in custom rifles?). The new 168 and 180 grain VLD projectiles are very stout and occasionally perform in a similar manner to the Sierra MatchKing, failing to produce broad, fast killing wounds. The 168 grain VLD is less effected by the thicker jacket, meeting enough resistance on medium game as to ensure fragmentation. Wounding at close ranges is excellent, kills are fast and clean and penetration is excellent. Killing is delayed at 1000 yards (below 1800fps)."

JLK say that they use the original J4 jacket so I wonder if they behave as the original Bergers did….?

This is incorrect information but I can understand why Natan would be confused, there was a lot of confusion. Berger never changed their original jacket thickness, they simply added a second thickness for target and now tactical shooters to prevent the mid air blow up "blue cloud" and weren't very clear communicating it to the public. That is why they changed from yellow to an orange box for the hunting VLD's which are the original J4 jacket, the yellow box are the thicker jacket.

I have discussed this personally face to face with Eric Stecker, and Michelle Gallagher of Berger along with her sister Sherrie Gallagher and her mother Nancy Tomkins. You would probably recognize Nancy's Name, she has won many matches at Bisley and helped the US Palma team win multiple world championships. Nancy and her husband Mid Tomkins were some of the voices that led to the thicker jackets being developed for target shooters, not hunters. I have competed with these shooters at our US national matches and had plenty of time in the target pits to talk about it. But you don't have to take hearsay evidence you can read it straight from Berger.

“Premium” Or “Match Grade” On The Hunting Bullet Label. What’s The Difference?
Posted October 8, 2010
When we learned that our VLD bullets were a very effective and quickly lethal hunting bullet, we knew that this fact was going to be met with resistance. For decades, other bullet brands and many of those whose opinions are regarded highly by others have said that Match bullets are not good for hunting.
Long ago, we made a commitment to a factual, scientific-based marketing position so we decided to leave the “Match Grade” on the box. Later, when we made thicker jackets to resolve an issue with bullets used on targets, we separated the bullets made on standard thickness jackets into the “Hunting” line since these are the bullets that are known to work so well on game.
This was the beginning of putting our Hunting bullets in the orange boxes with labels that said both “Hunting” and “Match Grade”. Over the years, we worked hard to educate hunters that even though our game hunting bullets are match grade, this did not mean that they are not good for game hunting.
This challenging effort to educate hunters went on for several years. Fortunately, our bullets work so well that we are helped tremendously by hunters talking to each other about how well they perform. Even though this is true, we still heard many people say that they don’t feel comfortable using a “Match” bullet for hunting.
To resolve this, about 6 months ago I made the decision to change the label from “Match Grade Rifle Bullets” to “Premium Rifle Bullets”. The bullets were not changed in any way, which is a fact that we promoted during this change. My intension was to provide comfort to those who were hung up on the word “Match” as a reason why they won’t try our game hunting bullet.
I am willing to try new things to effectively connect with the discerning rifle shooter, but this change never felt right. I am resolved to follow my gut and go back to what we were doing in the first place. As of October 8th 2010, the labels for all bullets in the “Hunting” line will be changed back to say “Match Grade Rifle Bullets”. It is not a negative thing that we figured out how to make quickly lethal and extremely effective game hunting bullets that are also Match Grade.
Keep in mind that nothing about the bullets have changed through these label changes. The bullets are exactly the same as they have been for decades. We do not have a different grade of bullets. Everything we make for our Target, Varmint, Hunting and the new Tactical lines are made to the same “Match Grade” tolerances and standards. We don’t do it any other way.
We will go back to educating hunters about the difference between Match bullets that are admittedly not good for hunting and our Hunting bullets which are great for hunting and made to Match Grade tolerances. I accept that those who are not comfortable with Match Grade Hunting bullets have dozens of options to choose from that are not Match Grade. I offer that if they give our Match Grade Hunting bullets a try, they will be very happy with the results.
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Executive Vice President

[trazman]

The Berger Hunting VLD's use the original J4 jacket therefore the original thickness. I'm at a loss to explain what Tomaz has documented. I've seen similar results with the Sierra SMK's and the thicker target Jacket use on non hunting Berger VLD's, Hornady Custom Competition and similar. The Berger Hunting VLD should open even on a roe deer. Look at the 10% ballistic Gel block and impose a roe deers chest cavity, it should be a very nasty exit and drop the animal in it's tracks, but it didn't. I wish I understood why.

I allways experienced this on animals with a weight of 10kg or less. With adult roe deers the effect was as expected. So dropped on the spot and a big exit wound. So what I believe is that on smaller ones the structure is even softer then gelatin and thickness of the body is just over 3".

As I said on bigger animals the effect of Bergers is really perfect.

[stokesrj]

For everyone, my intentions here are not to prove that one bullet is better than another, rather, I would like to understand the difference in terminal performance, of these bullets designed for long range use, and share it with those who care. I believe there are situations where one will excel over the others and other situations where the reverse will be true. The fun is in the finding out.
Of these three 6.5 mm bullets under test, the Berger 140 grain Hunting VLD, the Barnes 127 grain LRX and the Nosler 142 grain Accubond Long Range, I have seen only the 140 Berger used in the field. I've seen it used on Elk, Mule Deer, Coues Deer, Antelope, Javalina, Wild Boar, and quite a few whitetail. I feel I have a pretty good handle on how it performs over a wide range of impact velocities. Hopefully, at the end of these tests I can use that field experience to bring context to the findings.
So far there are a few things that are obvious. The Berger makes a wide shallow wound channel compared to the Barnes LRX which makes a narrower deeper wound channel. That in itself was to be expected but I was actually surprised to see that the Berger retained 40% of it's weight at extreme impact velocity of 3,350 FPS, I was expecting it to shed it's core and leave a very shallow wound channel. It made a very wide temporary cavity, approximately 10-12" in diameter and penetrated almost 17". That would be devastating to any animal standing broadside and hit in the ribs or even shoulder any animal elk size or smaller.
The Barnes LRX with it's deeper, straight line penetration, would be better applied though the shoulder and would more than likely exit any North american game from any angle except full on lengthwise.
I haven't begun testing the 142 grain Nosler Accubond LR yet, they are new and I just got them last week. Hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to see how it does at high velocity.
Bob

[turner.jc1]

I believe that Berger began using thicker jackets in their hunting bullets around 2011/2012,after US hunters began using VLDs on bigger animals and received complaints of bullet blow ups and 'blue mist' in fast twist custom rifles.

Natan Foster discusses the issue on his ballistic studies site:

"Note: Update 1 Jan 2011. Berger have recently thickened the Jackets on the VLD line of projectiles due to concerns from hunters that the VLD was suffering mid air bullet blow up (perhaps due to aggressive twist rates in custom rifles?). The new 168 and 180 grain VLD projectiles are very stout and occasionally perform in a similar manner to the Sierra MatchKing, failing to produce broad, fast killing wounds. The 168 grain VLD is less effected by the thicker jacket, meeting enough resistance on medium game as to ensure fragmentation. Wounding at close ranges is excellent, kills are fast and clean and penetration is excellent. Killing is delayed at 1000 yards (below 1800fps)."

JLK say that they use the original J4 jacket so I wonder if they behave as the original Bergers did….?

This is incorrect information but I can understand why Natan would be confused, there was a lot of confusion. Berger never changed their original jacket thickness, they simply added a second thickness for target and now tactical shooters to prevent the mid air blow up "blue cloud" and weren't very clear communicating it to the public. That is why they changed from yellow to an orange box for the hunting VLD's which are the original J4 jacket, the yellow box are the thicker jacket.

Bob is your information current? I know what you've said happened regarding the original bullets. But I was lead to believe that they also slightly increased the thickness of the hunting jackets at a later date..

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowled ... k=80483479

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowled ... r+VLD.html

If they didn't increase the jacket thickness of the hunting VLDs then I bow to your greater knowledge. But something must be causing the reports of inconsistent performance. I will reiterate my initial curiosity is that these bullets are widely used in the USA, and receive rave reviews. Yet in EU/NZ we have reports of inconstancy. I will continue to use them personally, but will avoid smaller species. Perhaps an Amax would be a good substitute when a softer long range projectile is required.

[stokesrj]

My last conversation with Eric was at Camp Perry during the National Matches in 2012, so my data is about three years old. However it was after all the controversy. Therefore I believe it is current, however, I'm always open to new information. That is why we have these discussions.

I believe there was a wide spread campaign that lasted several years aimed at discrediting Berger bullets for hunting uses. We are still seeing the effects of that purposefully disseminated incorrect information.

As to the A-Max, I don't consider it a true hunting bullet. I was involved in creating the 6.5mm 123 grain SST which is essentially the 123 A-Max with an interlock added. This was because we had many reports of A-Max failures to penetrate. I made an initial prototype run of 6,000 123 grain SST bullets, sent them out to the 6.5 Grendel community for testing and so far there has been 100% success. Granted, this is a different story from long rang VLD bullets since the 6.5 Grendel is launching this bullet at 2,400-2,600 FPS depending upon barrel length. But it does show what collaboration between many users can yield. The 123 SST is now a production bullet that is very successful. Here is my son shipping 6,000 prototype bullets to hunters to collect information, good or bad.

Here is the very first Hornady 6.5 123 grain SST ever recovered from a big game animal.
This is how you collect the most meaningful information on bullet performance. It is nearly impossible to sort the "wheat from the chaff" on the internet.
Bob

[turner.jc1]

Congrats on helping to create a successful bullet. Do you have any info on the new Hornady ELD-X? An Amax with an interlock and new heat resistant tip?

[stokesrj]

I really don't know anything about the ELD-X other than what I've read. I don't know much about the problems it's trying to solve with the melting polymer tips. But I do have the tools to see if it is a real issue or not. My 6.5 STW can drive the 127 Barnes LRX to 3,460 fps which should be fast enough to cause a problem if one can be caused and I have the Lab Radar, doppler radar unit being delivered soon. I might be able to learn something about it.
Bob