Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
Moderators: deerhunter338mag, stokesrj, trazman
- stokesrj
- Moderator
- Posts: 5918
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
- Location: USA
- Location: Mesa AZ, USA
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
The closest visual match is still H4350 so maybe that is what Hornady uses after all. I also took apart some Hornady 140 grain ELD Match loads, looks like the same powder but 43 grains. Just for fun I'm going to try working up from 41 grains with both the H4895 and IMR 4451 in steps of .3 grains to see where it matches the velocity of the factory Precision Hunter load provided I don't run into pressure signs.
Robert J Stokes
- Corjack
- Administrator
- Posts: 10260
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:28 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Location: Booger county Missouri
- Contact:
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
I have shot a couple pounds of 4451, and it shot well. I have read it takes about .5 grain more 4451 to get the same velocity as 4350. I never loaded more than 41.7 grains. It shot real good, but then when I went back to 4350 it shot better. I think 41.7 may be just getting into a node, but did not want to load that hot to get there. RL16 is the only powder that has been more accurate than 4350. I have shot about 8 pounds of it this summer, and it is temp stable as well. You also get about 25 fps gain in velocity. Since the Blaser barrels run a tad short, you might try 36.5 grains of Varget. You might get the same velocity.
- stokesrj
- Moderator
- Posts: 5918
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
- Location: USA
- Location: Mesa AZ, USA
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
Yes, I get that the Blaser barrel is both effectively shorter due to physical length, especially if measured to the bolt face compared to a 24" barrel which is used in most loading manual set ups, and that it is longer throated as well. But the comparison I'm making here is 41.0 grains of the Hornady factory powder which provides 2625 fps average velocity with the 143 ELD-X and a heavier charge of H4350, 41.5 grains which produces 75 fps slower velocity out of the same barrel. The length of the barrel is already factored out of the experiment in that the factory load is listed at 2,700 fps and I'm getting 2625 or 75 fps lower, I just don't want to accept an additional 75 fps loss and less accuracy.
So what I will do now is a three way test matrix of H4350, IMR4350, and IMR4451 at charge weights of; 41.0 - 42.9 grains in .3 grain increments under controlled conditions. If nothing else this should provide useful to others considering substitution of any of these powders which are all in the desired burn range. If none of these work out I might try the Superformance powder. The lowest standard deviation and extreme spreads I've found with any powder have been with Superformance. But it only seems to work well in a very narrow band near max pressures.
So what I will do now is a three way test matrix of H4350, IMR4350, and IMR4451 at charge weights of; 41.0 - 42.9 grains in .3 grain increments under controlled conditions. If nothing else this should provide useful to others considering substitution of any of these powders which are all in the desired burn range. If none of these work out I might try the Superformance powder. The lowest standard deviation and extreme spreads I've found with any powder have been with Superformance. But it only seems to work well in a very narrow band near max pressures.
Robert J Stokes
- icebug
- Meister der jagd
- Posts: 1153
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:36 pm
- Location: all over the world
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
Just a quick question regarding 6.5CM
I have a Tikka T3x Tac A1 in 6.5CM on order, it should be delivered next month.
I already got the dies and bullets, I'll get Lapua brass but I don't know which SR primers should I take?
I was looking at CCI BR4 or Federal Gold Medal GM205M.
Which one would you go with?
Tnx!
I have a Tikka T3x Tac A1 in 6.5CM on order, it should be delivered next month.
I already got the dies and bullets, I'll get Lapua brass but I don't know which SR primers should I take?
I was looking at CCI BR4 or Federal Gold Medal GM205M.
Which one would you go with?
Tnx!
- Corjack
- Administrator
- Posts: 10260
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:28 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Location: Booger county Missouri
- Contact:
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
90% of the shooter competing with the Creedmoor and Lapua brass are using CCI 450 primers.
- icebug
- Meister der jagd
- Posts: 1153
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:36 pm
- Location: all over the world
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
So, magnum is probably a way to go.
Which ones do you use Ron?
Also, let's see what Bob says.
Since it's a bit hard to get Hodgdon or ADI powders in Europe, which Vihtavuori could I use instead? N150?
Which ones do you use Ron?
Also, let's see what Bob says.
Since it's a bit hard to get Hodgdon or ADI powders in Europe, which Vihtavuori could I use instead? N150?
- Corjack
- Administrator
- Posts: 10260
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:28 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Location: Booger county Missouri
- Contact:
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
I am using CCI 450. Now I think the guys shooting Fclass lean more BR4. A few guys I talk to at matches switch back and forth between the two, and almost to the man, say in this particular combination they can not tell much difference. Your Tikka will probably have a standard size fireing pin. With standard small rifle primers you might get cratering a bit. The harder cup in the 450 minimizes this. They tell me the BR4 has the same cup. GM match primer cups are thinner, or possibly softer, not sure which. Somewhere on the PRS blog is an article about primer types most often used. I could not find it, and am in a bit of a rush this morning. Will look more this evening.
- stokesrj
- Moderator
- Posts: 5918
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
- Location: USA
- Location: Mesa AZ, USA
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
I agree with Ron, either the CCI 450 or BR4, they are essentially the same primer, same cup thickness, same flash size. Theoretically the BR4 has better control of the primer pellet size but I've been unable to see any difference. What I find even better is the Wolf small rifle magnum primer. In my testing, and in all other reports it provides better SD's and long range accuracy. This primer was abundant five or six years ago but seem to be scarce nowadays. The Tula, S&B, and Wolf are the same primer, made in Russia. You may have better luck finding the CCI 450.
My supply of Wolf primers is dwindling, I bought 12,000 and am now down to a few hundred left and may be forced to switch to CCI 450 primers which I have a couple of cases of.
In the small rifle size I was never able to get the Federal primers to perform as well as the CCI or Wolf. The cup thickness is also insufficient to prevent the occasional slam fire in the M16. Perhaps, not an issue to your Tikka but something to be aware of.
My supply of Wolf primers is dwindling, I bought 12,000 and am now down to a few hundred left and may be forced to switch to CCI 450 primers which I have a couple of cases of.
In the small rifle size I was never able to get the Federal primers to perform as well as the CCI or Wolf. The cup thickness is also insufficient to prevent the occasional slam fire in the M16. Perhaps, not an issue to your Tikka but something to be aware of.
Robert J Stokes
- icebug
- Meister der jagd
- Posts: 1153
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:36 pm
- Location: all over the world
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
Thank you guys, I appreciate it!
- stokesrj
- Moderator
- Posts: 5918
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
- Location: USA
- Location: Mesa AZ, USA
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
I found some very interesting results today at the range. I set up a controlled experiment evaluating H4350, IMR4350, and IMR4451 propelling the 143 grain Hornady ELD-X seated to the same COL as the Precision Hunter factory loading and using full length resized Hornady cases and Federal GM210M primers.
Using my Lab Radar, I set up at the Wyoming Antelope Club in Pinellas Park, Florida. Conditions were 88 degrees fahrenheit, 79% relative humidity, 29.88 inches of Mercury and steady, winds were very gentle, not really a factor at all.
The sequence I followed was to first fire a 3 shot group using the 123 A-Max load this rifle seems to like then in sequence the H4350 matrix starting at 40.9 grains and moving up in .3 grain increments to 43 grains. Then repeat the same for the IMR4350 and IMR 4451. Then another 3 shot group of the 123 A-max load to confirm all was relatively unchanged.
I had written out this protocol to follow but as nearly always happens I got a few out of sequence. I easily noted and corrected this because I had written the load on each case. Good thing I did.
First the three shot group of 123 A-Max, on the center triangle. All was well, the first two shots going through the same hole and the third shot opening the group to about 1/4" .242" to be exact at 100 yards. Velocities were as expected 2716 fps avg, 23 fps extreme spread, and 12.3 standard deviation. With this out of the way I fired the H4350 matrix 40.9, 41.2, 41.5, 41.8, 42.1, 42.4, 42.7 and 43.0.
These produced a very pleasing group with a vertical dispersion 1.508" and horizontal dispersion of .690. This is much as I expected. Velocities were 2546,2561,2592,2620,2629,2649,2663, and 2712. No pressure signs were evident even though Hodgdon lists 41.5 grains as maximum with the 142 Sierra Match King at 2694 fps from a 24" barrel. This completed a live fire session so I let the gun cool for the period of time allowed to service targets and then resume fire. The same matrix was followed with the IMR4350 powder from 40.9-43.0 grains in .3 grain increments. Velocities were 2565,2599,2600,2654,2657,2679,2709 an 2733. Very similar to the H4350 as far as velocities were concerned, but the results on target were completely different. Instead of a verticle string as you would expect with an extreme spread of 168 fps, it produced a rounded sub MOA group .765" center to center, amazing. After another ceas fire and cooling of the rifle I repeated the same drill but this time with the IMR4451 powder. This matrix was quite a bit more jumpy, meaning that one shot would be low, the next high, and one flyer way left. Not at all satisfying. Velocities were also a little erratic, 2625,2638,2636,2661,2678,2727,2713,and 2716. Finally I fired a three shot closing control group to make sure everything was as we started. This produced an average velocity of 2725 fps, ES of 12.6 and SD of 6.2. The on target group measured .540". Here is the complete target so that you can see all was fired on one sheet of paper. Velocity results of all three powders was very similar, no high pressure signs were encountered, but on target performance varied greatly. My challenge now is to choose a powder and load a quantity for field testing at 400 yards.
Using my Lab Radar, I set up at the Wyoming Antelope Club in Pinellas Park, Florida. Conditions were 88 degrees fahrenheit, 79% relative humidity, 29.88 inches of Mercury and steady, winds were very gentle, not really a factor at all.
The sequence I followed was to first fire a 3 shot group using the 123 A-Max load this rifle seems to like then in sequence the H4350 matrix starting at 40.9 grains and moving up in .3 grain increments to 43 grains. Then repeat the same for the IMR4350 and IMR 4451. Then another 3 shot group of the 123 A-max load to confirm all was relatively unchanged.
I had written out this protocol to follow but as nearly always happens I got a few out of sequence. I easily noted and corrected this because I had written the load on each case. Good thing I did.
First the three shot group of 123 A-Max, on the center triangle. All was well, the first two shots going through the same hole and the third shot opening the group to about 1/4" .242" to be exact at 100 yards. Velocities were as expected 2716 fps avg, 23 fps extreme spread, and 12.3 standard deviation. With this out of the way I fired the H4350 matrix 40.9, 41.2, 41.5, 41.8, 42.1, 42.4, 42.7 and 43.0.
These produced a very pleasing group with a vertical dispersion 1.508" and horizontal dispersion of .690. This is much as I expected. Velocities were 2546,2561,2592,2620,2629,2649,2663, and 2712. No pressure signs were evident even though Hodgdon lists 41.5 grains as maximum with the 142 Sierra Match King at 2694 fps from a 24" barrel. This completed a live fire session so I let the gun cool for the period of time allowed to service targets and then resume fire. The same matrix was followed with the IMR4350 powder from 40.9-43.0 grains in .3 grain increments. Velocities were 2565,2599,2600,2654,2657,2679,2709 an 2733. Very similar to the H4350 as far as velocities were concerned, but the results on target were completely different. Instead of a verticle string as you would expect with an extreme spread of 168 fps, it produced a rounded sub MOA group .765" center to center, amazing. After another ceas fire and cooling of the rifle I repeated the same drill but this time with the IMR4451 powder. This matrix was quite a bit more jumpy, meaning that one shot would be low, the next high, and one flyer way left. Not at all satisfying. Velocities were also a little erratic, 2625,2638,2636,2661,2678,2727,2713,and 2716. Finally I fired a three shot closing control group to make sure everything was as we started. This produced an average velocity of 2725 fps, ES of 12.6 and SD of 6.2. The on target group measured .540". Here is the complete target so that you can see all was fired on one sheet of paper. Velocity results of all three powders was very similar, no high pressure signs were encountered, but on target performance varied greatly. My challenge now is to choose a powder and load a quantity for field testing at 400 yards.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Robert J Stokes
-
- Meister der jagd
- Posts: 1082
- Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:21 am
- Location: Australia
- Location: Tasmania
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
stokesrj wrote:I found some very interesting results today at the range. I set up a controlled experiment evaluating H4350, IMR4350, and IMR4451 propelling the 143 grain Hornady ELD-X seated to the same COL as the Precision Hunter factory loading and using full length resized Hornady cases and Federal GM210M primers.
Using my Lab Radar, I set up at the Wyoming Antelope Club in Pinellas Park, Florida. Conditions were 88 degrees fahrenheit, 79% relative humidity, 29.88 inches of Mercury and steady, winds were very gentle, not really a factor at all.
The sequence I followed was to first fire a 3 shot group using the 123 A-Max load this rifle seems to like then in sequence the H4350 matrix starting at 40.9 grains and moving up in .3 grain increments to 43 grains. Then repeat the same for the IMR4350 and IMR 4451. Then another 3 shot group of the 123 A-max load to confirm all was relatively unchanged.
I had written out this protocol to follow but as nearly always happens I got a few out of sequence. I easily noted and corrected this because I had written the load on each case. Good thing I did.
First the three shot group of 123 A-Max, on the center triangle. All was well, the first two shots going through the same hole and the third shot opening the group to about 1/4" .242" to be exact at 100 yards. Velocities were as expected 2716 fps avg, 23 fps extreme spread, and 12.3 standard deviation.
fullsizeoutput_28d0.jpeg
With this out of the way I fired the H4350 matrix 40.9, 41.2, 41.5, 41.8, 42.1, 42.4, 42.7 and 43.0.
These produced a very pleasing group with a vertical dispersion 1.508" and horizontal dispersion of .690. This is much as I expected. Velocities were 2546,2561,2592,2620,2629,2649,2663, and 2712. No pressure signs were evident even though Hodgdon lists 41.5 grains as maximum with the 142 Sierra Match King at 2694 fps from a 24" barrel.
fullsizeoutput_28c8.jpeg
This completed a live fire session so I let the gun cool for the period of time allowed to service targets and then resume fire. The same matrix was followed with the IMR4350 powder from 40.9-43.0 grains in .3 grain increments. Velocities were 2565,2599,2600,2654,2657,2679,2709 an 2733. Very similar to the H4350 as far as velocities were concerned, but the results on target were completely different. Instead of a verticle string as you would expect with an extreme spread of 168 fps, it produced a rounded sub MOA group .765" center to center, amazing.
fullsizeoutput_28ca.jpeg
After another ceas fire and cooling of the rifle I repeated the same drill but this time with the IMR4451 powder. This matrix was quite a bit more jumpy, meaning that one shot would be low, the next high, and one flyer way left. Not at all satisfying. Velocities were also a little erratic, 2625,2638,2636,2661,2678,2727,2713,and 2716.
fullsizeoutput_28cc.jpeg
Finally I fired a three shot closing control group to make sure everything was as we started. This produced an average velocity of 2725 fps, ES of 12.6 and SD of 6.2. The on target group measured .540".
fullsizeoutput_28d2.jpeg
Here is the complete target so that you can see all was fired on one sheet of paper.
fullsizeoutput_28ce.jpeg
Velocity results of all three powders was very similar, no high pressure signs were encountered, but on target performance varied greatly. My challenge now is to choose a powder and load a quantity for field testing at 400 yards.
Very interesting results Bob. I found this on a UK forum and this was a general discussion regarding 6.5 reloads and the RPR. The comments are from a highly respected Fclass and bench rest shooter. He states clearly that Hornady factory loads use H4350. Most of the quote is not relevant and is from Feb. this year
"More important than external ballistics in this instance is finding out which bullet(s) the RPR barrel likes and persuading it to group tightly. As the TMK and ELD only arrived late last year, there is little feedback on them to date. So far as the Hornady goes, if the new model is just the old AMAX shape with more consistent jackets and made better as Hornady claims, but otherwise as before except for the different material tip, load it to 2.800" COAL, give it 41.0 to 41.9gn H4350 if using Hornady brass and it should shoot well. (Hornady factory is now loaded with 41.5gn H4350.) The chamber was developed for the 140gn AMAX after all. Norma brass is heavier / has less capacity, so the ideal loads will likely be in the 40-41gn area"
Another member came in with a comment that newer batches of H4350 were "hotter" than previous batches of the powder. If this is the case it might explain the difficulty you have had in replicating factory MV. Even so the suggestion is that loading past 41.5 should be okay and you have shown that to be the case.
Nice work on the testing and I will interested to see what works best at distance as that is what I am currently working on with the Lap x47.
- SPEEDY
- Moderator
- Posts: 11301
- Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:50 am
- Location: Southern highland- Australia
- Location: Albury, NSW, Australia
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
I'm glad I never got into any target shooting as there is just way to much involved for me to care.
But it's still very interesting to learn about the science that goes into achieving top accuracy.
Although all this 6.5 talk has me craving one again as I haven't had one in 7-8 years now.
But it's still very interesting to learn about the science that goes into achieving top accuracy.
Although all this 6.5 talk has me craving one again as I haven't had one in 7-8 years now.
I'm soft and I don't care.
-
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:09 pm
- Location: England
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
Icebug. If you are in Europe I would recommend you try and source murom primers. Far far cheaper than American brands and used by many top target shooters here in the UK. I will be swapping to them when by stock of BR4's dries up.
- icebug
- Meister der jagd
- Posts: 1153
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:36 pm
- Location: all over the world
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
Scotch, yes, I'm in Europe. I'll try finding them in Germany.
Thanks for your advice!
Are you handloading 6.5CM? If so, which powder do you use?
Thanks for your advice!
Are you handloading 6.5CM? If so, which powder do you use?
- Corjack
- Administrator
- Posts: 10260
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:28 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Location: Booger county Missouri
- Contact:
Re: Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Precision Hunter 143 grain ELDX
My shooting of 4451 had it shooting a tad better than the results you got, but H4350 was clearly more accurate. Never tried IMR4350, as I knew I would be shooting in some hot temps.