The .308 Winchester for Long Range

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SPEEDY
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by SPEEDY » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:36 am

In VIC you can shoot on the public lands, they don't encourage it (DPI) but it is allowed so you can set a target on one ridge, drive over to the next and practice with a big safe backstop.


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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by Central Vic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:51 am

SPEEDY wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:36 am
In VIC you can shoot on the public lands, they don't encourage it (DPI) but it is allowed so you can set a target on one ridge, drive over to the next and practice with a big safe backstop.
Thanks Speedy. I did ask DEPI in Bendigo that and they told me target shooting is illegal in state forests. I clarified that I would be shooting at a rabbit or fox near the target that just happened to be there and apparently that was more Ok... Another case of very grey or nonsensical rules... you can shoot in state forests but only at living things... My local copper is a keen shooter apparently so I might have a quiet word and see what he thinks.

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by deerhunter338mag » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:38 am

SPEEDY wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:36 am
In VIC you can shoot on the public lands, they don't encourage it (DPI) but it is allowed so you can set a target on one ridge, drive over to the next and practice with a big safe backstop.
Mmmmm I’m not to sure on that one. The legislation around this is very scratchy from my understanding. I think you might find that your allowed to check zero before a hunt to that affect. You still need a game licence or your letter of authority to have a firearm on public land Up my way they did have a spot they turned a blind eye to, if you do the right thing but it’s been hit with a D4 now. Be very careful and I think it’s best to check with the local DEPI guys 1st.
I could be wrong but I’d be very careful.
Measure it, when it’s on the deck

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by stokesrj » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:29 am

It's a common trend, trying to take short cuts. I think you are on the right path. Practicing field positions in the field will teach you a lot. But don't neglect also spending time at the bench. There you learn what you and your rifle system are capable of under ideal conditions. Because more variables are controlled, it speeds up figuring out some things that if your training only consists of field positions, will take longer to figure out what is really going on.
My training routines consists of both bench time and field position time on level ground and then once I understand the degradation and how to reduce them, then I add in steep up and down hill angles.
My new home in Arizona is 4 minutes to a world class rifle range and on the border of a national forest that I can shoot in any field condition I might choose. So that may make it very different from how you should train.
Typically, I spend time at the bench mostly developing loads but once I've settled on one, I like to shoot a little routine on level ground to make sure I understand the path of my bullets in various wind conditions. I try to shoot one shot at 200 yards, 300 yards, and 400 yards every trip to the range. I may do this from the bench or from sitting behind my tripod. Then I make a special trip with a cardboard deer target and set it up where I can shoot it at various ranges typically 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards, occasionally farther if I think the rig I'm using is worthy.

Here is the hard part, because I cannot see where I hit on the cardboard target, I write down in my journal where I think I hit. What we term a call. I can tell by the direction the sights take in recoil if the shot was pulled, I watch the mirage, or other wind indicators and note if the wind changed prior to my shot breaking. Then I drive down, or around or whatever I have to do to get to the target and record my actual hit compared to the expected point of impact and tape the bullet hole from the back of the target so there are no reference points on the face except the image of the deer. This helps me learn in a more systematic manner rather than randomly discovering cause and effects. However, what I've really learned is that taking the time to build a really solid position is worth more than can be expressed in words.
Robert J Stokes

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by SPEEDY » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:44 am

deerhunter338mag wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:38 am
SPEEDY wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:36 am
In VIC you can shoot on the public lands, they don't encourage it (DPI) but it is allowed so you can set a target on one ridge, drive over to the next and practice with a big safe backstop.
Mmmmm I’m not to sure on that one. The legislation around this is very scratchy from my understanding. I think you might find that your allowed to check zero before a hunt to that affect. You still need a game licence or your letter of authority to have a firearm on public land Up my way they did have a spot they turned a blind eye to, if you do the right thing but it’s been hit with a D4 now. Be very careful and I think it’s best to check with the local DEPI guys 1st.
I could be wrong but I’d be very careful.
You don't need the letter of authority, that's just for getting your license, but you need the deer license if your in deer habitats regardless.
But you can check your zero, change your zero, test your load in other words target shoot.
You just can't have an organized shoot.
But testing your zero or confirming it at long range is fine too. As a matter of fact it's very ethical if your going to hunt long range to test your rifle at those ranges.
Buy some cheap gongs on fleabay etc and set up a little range out to 600m or so and practice.

It's been covered a lot that DPI personal say you can't "target shoot" but you can zero, confirm zero test zero of various loads, test you hunting equipment out.

It boils down to being legal but discouraged.
I was pattern testing different chokes in the shotgun today at my nearest forest, nothing wrong with that at all.
I'm soft and I don't care. :dance:

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by deerhunter338mag » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:00 pm

Yeah righto, good luck with it all then.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by secondtry » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:43 pm

I'm very much in agreement with DH338 on the question of non hunting shooting on various classifications of public land. Unless you read and actually understand the relevant regulations, best to be circumspect. Opinions from any of us here won't help if you get pinged. Much better to avoid a situation in which you are told "no", than to be told and then have to find a way around that.

I would pursue the plan of trying to find a bit of privately owned ground that you can use. More relaxing and more convenient. A bit of venison or occasional volunteer labour or a box of stubbies and your range fees are sorted :)

I use public land for all load development and most sighting in, and have done for many years. I am low key and most of the time do this on weekdays, when there a fewer people about. In the event that I should encounter offialdom, I do not envisage a problem, despite the "gray area" aspect of doing this. I am also in hill/mountain country with good vegetative cover and sound loses its direction and intensity very quickly. Your circumstances may be different and on public land, beyond a zero check on a cardboard box, I would be very careful.

I think it is important to remember that when we are doing range work away from a formal range, non shooters may be made uneasy by the gunfire. This is not "anti" on their part and we need to recognise their concerns. One place that I used over 30 years ago was on public land adjacent to a farm. Rocked up one day and there was a bloke working not far from my "range". I introduced myself, told him what I was I was doing, and asked if that would cause any concerns. "No worries mate" was the answer.
Central Vic wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:03 am

Apart from practice and shooting more, I'm going to drop letters at a few of the local farms and see if I can get permission to use the unproductive steep parts of their farms as a range. Not shooting critters, just paper.

I feel like now, more than ever, we are encouraged to buy more stuff before getting our fundamentals right.
A couple of suggestions to consider:-

A personal approach to landholders will work much better than a letter. Letters take time and effort to respond to and most people won't do that. Personal approach may well open additional doors or provide extra options for your "range". At the very least you have an opportunity to make a good impression on whoever you approach

Oh yeah on buying stuff. Most of us are tech heads to a greater or lesser degree and while "stuff" can be good fun, it does not, by itself bring skill, knowledge or results.

Whilst I am on board with the soft bullet in the ribs strategy, I have reservations about a 168ELDM on even a broadside a sambar. Shot doesn't have to go far forward to encounter some substantial bone, and if one tries to avoid the shoulder, the shot can be a long way back in the ribs. I would step up some weight if you can. I have some 195TMKs for this purpose, but I am still uncertain about a big bone hit.

The issue then becomes a loopy trajectory and the need for more stuff such as quality rangefinders and a scope with accurate dial upcapability, even at 400 yards . Also vital, and unbuyable, is some wind reading skills - these I am short on.

I hesitant to detail my practice, because others with more knowledge may say it's all wrong, and I don't want to mislead you.

I do very little live fire practice with centrefire rounds. I do a lot of handling of the rifle - shouldering, swinging, getting a sight picture, cranking the bolt at the shoulder, and a little (very little) dry firing to get a feel for the trigger. I think this routine comes from the early sambar hunting scene.

I also practice taking a position, whether that be prone, sitting or standing. I practice butt placement and grip on the pistol grip and forend. Standing off hand is pretty useless for me unless I am swinging, in which case the swing seems to dampen the wobbles a bit.

My idea is that the more familiar and relaxed that I can be with these aspects of taking a shot, the greater the amount of my brain that is free to concentrate on the target and on actual shot release. I gave up big kickers for the same reason - I could handle them, particularly at targets, but a tiny little bit of my brain was always working on managing the recoil, and that is no good.

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by Central Vic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:27 am

stokesrj wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:29 am
It's a common trend, trying to take short cuts. I think you are on the right path. Practicing field positions in the field will teach you a lot. But don't neglect also spending time at the bench. There you learn what you and your rifle system are capable of under ideal conditions. Because more variables are controlled, it speeds up figuring out some things that if your training only consists of field positions, will take longer to figure out what is really going on.
My training routines consists of both bench time and field position time on level ground and then once I understand the degradation and how to reduce them, then I add in steep up and down hill angles.
My new home in Arizona is 4 minutes to a world class rifle range and on the border of a national forest that I can shoot in any field condition I might choose. So that may make it very different from how you should train.
Typically, I spend time at the bench mostly developing loads but once I've settled on one, I like to shoot a little routine on level ground to make sure I understand the path of my bullets in various wind conditions. I try to shoot one shot at 200 yards, 300 yards, and 400 yards every trip to the range. I may do this from the bench or from sitting behind my tripod. Then I make a special trip with a cardboard deer target and set it up where I can shoot it at various ranges typically 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards, occasionally farther if I think the rig I'm using is worthy.

Here is the hard part, because I cannot see where I hit on the cardboard target, I write down in my journal where I think I hit. What we term a call. I can tell by the direction the sights take in recoil if the shot was pulled, I watch the mirage, or other wind indicators and note if the wind changed prior to my shot breaking. Then I drive down, or around or whatever I have to do to get to the target and record my actual hit compared to the expected point of impact and tape the bullet hole from the back of the target so there are no reference points on the face except the image of the deer. This helps me learn in a more systematic manner rather than randomly discovering cause and effects. However, what I've really learned is that taking the time to build a really solid position is worth more than can be expressed in words.
Thank you Robert, appreciate the feedback. Some good tips to work into my own routine. I like the idea of having a targets set at different ranges you need to adjust to. I'll spend some more time at the range getting comfortable shooting over my pack at the bench and prone. I'll then try to work out something with a local farmer or drive the 3 hrs to my folks farm to do the practical stuff shooting on the slopes across gullies. Looking at numbers and Nathan Fosters research I do think the 168gr ELD-M will be sufficient on all but the largest sambar, shooting in ideal conditions (if its windy and shot placement becomes questionable maybe not so much).

Cheers!

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by stokesrj » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:22 am

I’ve never shot a Sambar but can see that that the bulls are very heavily muscled when mature. I would be a little concerned about shoulder shots with the 168 ELDM and restrict their use to situations that I know will result in an unobstructed rib cage shot to both lungs. I would shoot a few younger bulls in the shoulder to better understand how this bullet will behave when encountering heavy muscle at mid velocity before trusting it to shoulder shots on mature bulls.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by Blasernovice » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:03 pm

I would follow Roberts advice and step up to at least the 178 eldm. My friend found the 178 killed red deer better than the 168 in his 308.

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by deerhunter338mag » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:16 pm

stokesrj wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:22 am
I’ve never shot a Sambar but can see that that the bulls are very heavily muscled when mature. I would be a little concerned about shoulder shots with the 168 ELDM and restrict their use to situations that I know will result in an unobstructed rib cage shot to both lungs. I would shoot a few younger bulls in the shoulder to better understand how this bullet will behave when encountering heavy muscle at mid velocity before trusting it to shoulder shots on mature bulls.
I know guys that use 308 use the SST with great success.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by Darizpe » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:19 pm

Is there an ELD-X ligther than 178 in 308.” , I have not seen any?

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by stokesrj » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:37 pm

No, the 178 is the lightest 308 ELD-X
178 grain #3074
200 grain #3076
212 grain #3077
220 grain #3078
Note that there is not a #3075 so maybe they were thinking of another one but scrapped it.
The SST is basically the same bullet, the same jacket, the same core, and it also has a channelure in addition to the interlock shared by the Interlock, SST and ELD-X. I've had very good performance from the 123 grain 6.5mm SST when fired from everything from my 6.5 Grendel to my 6.5 STW that is 2500 fps to 3600 fps starting velocities. It is a great bullet in my opinion but it lacks the super duper no melt tip :) and it isn't quite as aerodynamic. I sent out 6,000 of the 123 grain 6.5 SST to hunters for testing before it was released to the public. All the feedback I received from those hunters was positive, not a single negative report.
Robert J Stokes

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