Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

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MM
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Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by MM » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:23 pm

I have booked a Mt. Goat hunt in BC for September 2019 and am going to use my K95. I have never hunted Mt. Goats and this will probably be the only time that I do. I feel confident shooting 300 yards and under with my 30-06 and current scope setup( Zeiss 2.5-10x50) but what if due to weather, time running out general conditions,etc. my one and only chance comes at 300-600 yards?
Option 1. I played around with ballistic calculators for my load using the 165grn. Partition Bullet and compared ti to dropping down to a 130grn Barnes TTSX at higher velocity and jumped up to the 178grn. Hornady ELDX bullet with a high BC. There really isn't much difference in trajectory, max pbr and ability of the bullet to expand way out there due to drops in velocity. The 30-06 is what it is and I am not confident that it could be loaded to increase range and assure expansion.
Option 2. Use the 30-06 but upgrade to a scope with the ASV turret and dial it to the range presented. I still have the challenges listed above and I am introducing variables that I don't know how to account for. I live at an elevation of 500 feet above sea level and will probably be hunting at 8-9000 feet,how do I adjust my turret for that? I live in a humid area and generally the environmental factors will be much different, so how do you set up your scope in Ohio when you are hunting in BC at different elevation etc?
Option 3. Buy a new barrel in 257,6.5,270,7mm,or 300 weatherby mag and a scope with a ASV turret? I did change to the K95 because of the increased modularity of the platform as far as changing barrels/calibers and scopes for the job at hand.
My preference is to get closer (under 300 yards) but what if I can't? Any mountain hunters out there with some hard won experience to share?



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SPEEDY
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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by SPEEDY » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:15 pm

The 30/06 should do the job fine, 600 yards is definitely a long way for many people, then again 200 yards is long for some people.
I would get a scope with adjustable turrets or get Burris eliminator or one of the better glass competitors options and carry it in the back pack on another QR base.
That way If you get your 300m shot your confident with then all's good and if you don't and you get a 500m or worse case 600m shot then it will get you on target with minimal training or large amounts of aditional practice.

Shooting long range isn't a skill you pick up for one trip, and to 500 yards isn't too tricky but past that is where you really need to know yourself and your equipment.
I'm soft and I don't care. :dance:

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by deerhunter338mag » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:05 pm

MM if you have the coin I suggest have a really good think about this scope. Mate put one on his 7mm rem Barrel for the R93 and it’s been spot on every time. It will give you out to about 900metres. He’s playing around with the ELDX projectiles on Sambar and it’s killing them but just. I personally like the Bergers as their BC is higher and they kill much better. If your going to hunt at those altitudes then your going to need a weather reader like a Kestrel and good program that’s simple and accurate like “Shooter”. Or just get the Kestrel with the ballistic program built in. You still need a range finder thats mounted on a tripod for the most accurate reading. You need to validate your speed by shooting it way past your expected range. Then once it’s all sorted a lot of practice is need.

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by ebrownw2 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:14 pm

The Swarovski DS is definitely an awesome tool for LR hunting. I had a chance to play with one a while back. Very impressed. Contact me for details.

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by SPEEDY » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:57 pm

If you have the coin it's definitely the pic of the bunch.
Even if you sell it after the hunt for say $500 less then you bought it for, then its like buying $500 insurance for that once in a lifetime hunt.
I'm soft and I don't care. :dance:

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by deerhunter338mag » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:10 pm

ebrownw2 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:14 pm
The Swarovski DS is definitely an awesome tool for LR hunting. I had a chance to play with one a while back. Very impressed. Contact me for details.
If they just had a tac turret for once the program runs out, they would be out of this world.
Measure it, when it’s on the deck

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by mchughcb » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:18 pm

Maybe a burris eliminator 3 in the back pack and swap over if needed could be the cheapest option?

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by JJones » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:04 am

MM, congratulations booking what is sure to be a great hunt. I can offer my two cents. Living in the Intermountain West, the vast majority of my hunting is in areas that could be considered either ‘mountain hunting’ or ‘long range hunting’ country. And although my mountain goat experience is very limited, my one goat tag was successfully and recently filled this year.
First I’ll address goat vs. caliber/bullet. You’ll commonly hear how tough a mountain goat can be to kill, and that it’s important to anchor them quickly. All this is generally true, but instead of choosing a hard-hitting or flat shooting caliber I would focus more on making sure what you do choose you can shoot accurately, are comfortable with it, and you select an appropriate (and accurate) bullet for your rifle. I personally elected to use a 300 mag (Wby) to use for my hunt, but although I am a fan of magnum calibers, I don’t believe it was necessary. I originally started out planning to use a 180 grain Barnes TSX, thinking I needed a ‘tough’ bullet, and worked up a very accurate load. However, I then read the section on Mountain Goats in Craig Boddington’s ‘The Perfect Shot’ series and decided to heed his words on using a ‘less tough’ bullet and not worry as much about penetration, considering the relatively thin body width of a mountain goat. I ultimately chose a Nosler Accubond, and in my R93 the 200 grain shot best. What I can say, is with this single data point, for a 260 yard front shoulder shot this set-up worked like a charm. The key was shot placement and bullet performance. If you’re comfortable with a 7mm or 300 mag, I believe it will help if you extend the range past 300 yds. However, if you’re comfortable with the venerable 30-06, you shouldn’t be undergunned. I used a 30-06 with a 180 gr Accubond on a somewhat similar Ibex hunt and it worked just as well (albeit again at <300 yards).
Regarding Long Range Hunting, with mountain goats generally speaking getting close to them shouldn’t be too difficult and will likely be a terrain limiting factor, not that they are particularly skittish. And if you’re having difficulty getting close enough for a 300 yard shot, you’ll need to be seriously thinking how you’ll recover it if you do make the shot. My hunt was DIY so I was a bit more sensitive to this fact (although I thankfully I did have my daughter’s boyfriend to help with the packout…). I’ll also clarify that unlike many in my neck of the woods my definition of long-range hunting ends at 500 yards (personally my longest hunting shot has been 450). Although I know many of my guns could be capable of longer ranges, there are too many variables for me to comfortably hunt past this range, especially since almost all my hunting is DIY and without the benefit of a spotter, I don’t like guessing what’s going on downrange that far. I also enjoy getting in close.
That being said, I am a fan of maximizing my opportunities in the field, and am familiar with the nagging question of ‘what if my one and only chance…”. As such, I have used a variety of scope options over the years to make more confident shots between 250 and 500 yards. When I used to only have 1-2 guns that were my go to hunting rifles, I was a big fan of the ballistic reticle alternative. Scopes with these types of reticles can be generally found in a light and handy size, are relatively simple to use one you get them set up to the particular load, and are fairly accurate to 500 yards. However, being too much of a gun nut, I found with multiple rifles and calibers a quality turret system fits my needs better. As with any option, don’t plan on just reading the ammunition/component mfg data, entering into a calculator, and showing up to camp expecting to hit where you aim. I head into the desert with a 3’wide x 6’ tall paper target frame to validate all my calculations and adjustments, then spend a lot of time finding out exactly where my gun is hitting at 300 to 700+ yards so I’m fully confident at my hunting ranges. I rarely use custom engraved turrets (again too many guns, loads, and differing hunting destinations), and tape a range card for “MOA” adjustments to the stock based on what load I’m using and the anticipated weather/altitude conditions for where I’m hunting. In my experience, I sight in my rifle at 200 yards where I live and practice at long range using my local conditions range card. I then create another range card with the 200 yard zero using the conditions where I will be hunting. When I get to the hunting destination I check where it should be hitting at 100 yards (unless they have the ability for 200) and go hunting. This system works whether you’re using a ballistic reticle or turrets – practice with the data from your local conditions and data; reprint the data for your hunting destination and check zero once you’re there. Generally the weather and altitude data don’t impact much at 100 yards so you’re zero should be close – the biggest impacts are at the longer ranges. Ironically my longest shots have been in more exotic hunting destinations and not the vast West I live in, and this system has worked well for me.
As a last note, I noticed you didn’t ask if the K95 rifle was the right set up for this hunt. I’m assuming that’s because you already own a K95… For a mountain goat hunt, if asked I would recommend a light-weight rifle. Maybe as I’ve gotten older, an extra pound or two really makes a difference for me climbing around areas such as these goats typically live. However, you innately have that going for you with your selection. The only thing I might add is, unless your lucky enough to find one of the BC goats that hang out near a riverbank, plan on your rifle potentially getting beat up. You may want to pack a light weight gun sleeve (and a good backpack system to attach it to) so it’s protected during your hiking.
Good luck and make sure you in ‘goat shape’.

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SPEEDY
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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by SPEEDY » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:52 am

I'd think a 30/06 with a 165gn Nosler BT would be good choice for a shot to 450m with little excessive holdover.
I would still prefer to keep it to 350 yards myself.
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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by Blasernovice » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:53 am

Try the 178 eld-M or eld-x, my friend has a good run with the M in his 308 out to 700yds.
I recently did some long range gong shooting with my K95 in 7x65R and got first round hits at 340, 550, 610 and 710 yds. My scope is a VX6 2-12x42. It dials perfectly and wasn't too dear to buy.
The biggest thing is practise, practise, practise.

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by JPBlaser » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:59 am

30-06 + a berger around 168 grains should do the trick for the distances you are considering. As far as i know if you are running a Zeiss Victory scope,it can be fitted with the ASV turret even if it doesn`t have one.
I reckon that with some practice you will be able to execute successful shots at long range.
I'm running a 308 win and I'm completely confident that the round will kill a goat at up to 500m,am also some how confident that I'll be able to hit it too... :D
Jordan

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by SPEEDY » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:34 pm

I'd take a shot with my 308win and a 165gn pill like a Nosler BT or Hornady SST on game like that and at ranges like that.
There is too much of a push these days for special pills and stuff for LR shooting when your actually more likely to be making a shot under 300 yards.
You need a pill that will work close and far, you don't want to get all geared up for a 600 yard shot and then make a 100 yard shot only to have the pill fail at close range.

I'd highly recommend asking your outfitters about the range shots are taken at and tailor your rifle and your load to match his recommendation rather then taking a guess.
You might find he usually finds animinals under 200 yards 90% of the time and under 250 yards the rest.

Tailor your gear to what you will hunt not what you think is a worse case scenario as it will cost you more up close animinals then you will loose because of longer extreme ranges.
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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by secondtry » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:14 pm

Blasernovice wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:53 am
Try the 178 eld-M or eld-x, my friend has a good run with the M in his 308 out to 700yds.
I recently did some long range gong shooting with my K95 in 7x65R and got first round hits at 340, 550, 610 and 710 yds. My scope is a VX6 2-12x42. It dials perfectly and wasn't too dear to buy.
The biggest thing is practise, practise, practise.
Another vote for the 178 ELDM or the 175 TMK. No problem with the 30.06 for this job.

Note that the Kiwis probably do as much of this sort of shooting with MILD calibres as anyone, and more than most. ELDMs are very popular there.

Not all weights and all calibres of any particular projectile perform equally.

BTs and ABs have been shown to be approximately 10% optimistic with quoted BCs. This will definitely matter at longer ranges.

I am a big BT fan BUT those that I have used, noticeably dropped off in smack down at impact velocities below approx 2100/2200, despite good expansion.

Bergers seem to be popular amongst the magnum/cannon users, but there doesn't seem to be much feed back about their hunting performance in MILD calibres. I would have concerns about consistent expansion at the low impact velocities likely at longer ranges from the 06.

I'd definitely go for 178ELDM over the 168ELDM as the extra weight and slight reduction in MV will make it a little more reliable on a close shot. The K95 is very likely to have a longer throat than SAAMI which will also favour the heavier/longer bullet. The K95 is also likely to be twisted 11" which would probably rule out the 195 ELDM and the 195 TMK. If it twisted 10", I would consider trying either of those two 195s

Either way, you will need some sort of dial up capabilty, because the MVs of the loads that I have suggested will require too much holdover at 500yds.

500 is a sensible max (particularly for me :) ) when the wind is taken into account. In high, often treeless country, it is nigh on impossible for anyone to make an accurate call, particularly if shooting across one or more gullies that may well have there own updraft/downdraft happening, quite independently of the shooters position and of anything that may be visible at the target.

I'd use the 178 or 195 ELDM (depending on twist) and follow the advice given in this thread about set up and LR generally. jdjones' range card system makes sense to me.

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by secondtry » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:18 am

You could also avoid a lot of ballistic gack and fiddling around, by following Speedy's advice and simply using something like a 165 BT at around 2850, and keeping your shots to around 400yds.

Pretty sure you won't get the smack down that you would get from an ELDM at those ranges, but it would way better than any mono.

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by SPEEDY » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:28 am

I'm thinking that I might just start loading the 165gn BT again, just to stir the haters up.
It's a great bullet and if a mountain goat is anything like a big feral Billy then I can 100% guarantee it's effectiveness from 20m out to 800m, it was my go to bullet for years and damn accurate too.
Actually I loved email in my 6.5's as well, great bullets.
I'm soft and I don't care. :dance:

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