Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by deerhunter338mag » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:47 am

SPEEDY wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:28 am
I'm thinking that I might just start loading the 165gn BT again, just to stir the haters up.
It's a great bullet and if a mountain goat is anything like a big feral Billy then I can 100% guarantee it's effectiveness from 20m out to 800m, it was my go to bullet for years and damn accurate too.
Actually I loved email in my 6.5's as well, great bullets.
Make sure you get the 800m shot on video, that would be awesome.


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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by stokesrj » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:27 am

JJones gave you some very good advice. The difference between success and failure in long range hunting is seldom to do with anything more than getting up the learning curve and putting in the field trigger time to fully learn your capabilities. Your current rifle is more than adequate. I would upgrade your optics to one that has a reliable turret. I’m currently using a Swarovski Z8i with the additional turret out to 800 yards with my .308 and it is performing wonderfully as long as I accurately dope the wind. On a calm day, or even a day with a steady wind 5 MPH or less I can make an 800 yard shot with 100% confidence but that comes only after many hours of field practice.
Equipment is important but field experience can not be bought. I know how difficult it can be to find a place to practice long range it is time consuming and expensive, often requiring many miles traveled, hotel stays and so on. But you simply cannot get there without it.
As to bullet selection, the 30-06 will drive a variety of bullets to the required velocities to perform at the ranges you mentioned. However, the only failure I have experience personally is with the 165 grain Nosler partition which failed to expand at low impact velocities. Even then I don’t know if you could really call it a failure as it did kill the animal and I was able to recover it. This same bullet has worked perfectly under 500 yards on a wide variety of game from coyotes to elk and moose. The reality is that you will more than likely shoot your mountain goat at under 300 yards and your current set up will work just fine with whatever conventional hunting load you choose. But if you just want to be prepared for that unlikely long shot then the 178 ELDX is very hard to beat and the Hornady precision hunter loading shot really well for me in my testing with an R8. It is not loaded as hot as possible but is somewhat mild to keep it in the sweet spot for accuracy. Combine that with a scope that is capable of repeatable and dependable elevation adjustments and return and practice, practice, practice would be my recommendation.
Robert J Stokes

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by Corjack » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:17 pm

You got time. I would first buy a Kestrel, then find some place you can shoot to say 500 yards. If you are good out to 300 just a little more work you can get good to 500. I love my Kestrel, and am still learning how to properly use it. It has made a big difference in my longer range stuff. I figure you need to take your backpack and practice shooting prone off it, then practice with it laying on top of a bench, but not sitting. Imaging it was on top of a rock. Technique will be as important as accuracy. If you got a bit of coin book a class at FTW in Texas. They will train you to make first round hits from lots of different positions from a hunting point of view. After the first day you will just be bored shooting at 300 yards.
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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by deerhunter338mag » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:00 pm

Corjack wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:17 pm
You got time. I would first buy a Kestrel, then find some place you can shoot to say 500 yards. If you are good out to 300 just a little more work you can get good to 500. I love my Kestrel, and am still learning how to properly use it. It has made a big difference in my longer range stuff. I figure you need to take your backpack and practice shooting prone off it, then practice with it laying on top of a bench, but not sitting. Imaging it was on top of a rock. Technique will be as important as accuracy. If you got a bit of coin book a class at FTW in Texas. They will train you to make first round hits from lots of different positions from a hunting point of view. After the first day you will just be bored shooting at 300 yards.
Good advice Ron. It’s not rocket science like people try and make out it is. It’s just a bit of math and bucket loads of practice. like I said you need a Kestrel with the new ballistic program in it or an app on your phone. Regardless what way you go, you will still need a weather reading device of some type but the Kestrels are about the best. Validate you speed on a perfect day a few 100m past your expected range,till you fine tune you speed right in to the closes fps you can get (even with factory Ammo). You need to up date the scope to something with accurate turrets. Don’t go the cheaper brands as they tend to play up and are not as accurate as the better scopes. That’s why I suggest the Swaro scope. I wouldn’t go the Burris eliminator just on the glass been of a low standard. The program is fine in fact it’s the same program in the Swaro scope from my understanding that works on G1 bc. Swaro scope has barometric and temperature capabilities built in, so no need for a Kestrel , that’s a massive plus.

The projectile you use needs to be of high bc, accurate and kills good. Trophy of a life time needs to drop on the spot, not 300-400m on the other hill. Once your set up you might need to think about a QD bipod, a small rear bag to rest under the rear of your stock and practice your routine. “Glass, set gun up on the animal and dail and shoot”. Big mistake guys do in LR is not practice this simple and very important dill. Come the day they see an animal, it’s heaps of Phuckings. Target LR and hunting LR is completely different. That’s why I like PRS competition as it’s a great foundation for not mucking around and getting behind your gun dail up and on target in uncomfortable position.

Most important thing is don’t shoot past what you are confident in shooting. The gun might have the abilities to go much further but it takes a bucket load of trigger time to tune those skills in.
Don’t get to over loaded with it, as its not rocket science just a bit of math and practice. :lol:
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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by Rod » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:41 pm

MM wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:23 pm
I have booked a Mt. Goat hunt in BC for September 2019 and am going to use my K95. I have never hunted Mt. Goats and this will probably be the only time that I do. I feel confident shooting 300 yards and under with my 30-06 and current scope setup( Zeiss 2.5-10x50) but what if due to weather, time running out general conditions,etc. my one and only chance comes at 300-600 yards?
Option 1. I played around with ballistic calculators for my load using the 165grn. Partition Bullet and compared ti to dropping down to a 130grn Barnes TTSX at higher velocity and jumped up to the 178grn. Hornady ELDX bullet with a high BC. There really isn't much difference in trajectory, max pbr and ability of the bullet to expand way out there due to drops in velocity. The 30-06 is what it is and I am not confident that it could be loaded to increase range and assure expansion.
Option 2. Use the 30-06 but upgrade to a scope with the ASV turret and dial it to the range presented. I still have the challenges listed above and I am introducing variables that I don't know how to account for. I live at an elevation of 500 feet above sea level and will probably be hunting at 8-9000 feet,how do I adjust my turret for that? I live in a humid area and generally the environmental factors will be much different, so how do you set up your scope in Ohio when you are hunting in BC at different elevation etc?
Option 3. Buy a new barrel in 257,6.5,270,7mm,or 300 weatherby mag and a scope with a ASV turret? I did change to the K95 because of the increased modularity of the platform as far as changing barrels/calibers and scopes for the job at hand.
My preference is to get closer (under 300 yards) but what if I can't? Any mountain hunters out there with some hard won experience to share?
Never hunted North American Goats, but I've hunted Dall sheep, Thar and Chamois with a 30/06. My rifle, scope ammo sets up's were R8 professional with a 1.5 to 6 Zeiss Victory, firing Federal 180 grain partitions for the Dall. For the Thar and chamois Sako 75 with a 1.5 to 6 Zeiss firing Remington 180 grain factory ammo (think they were corelokts??) Both rifles were zeroed at 200 yards. With both rifles holdover for 300 yards is approx 9 inches, 400 yards = 2 feet, 500 yards = 4 feet.

Dall was shot at 270 yards in a near cyclone. Longest Thar shot was a laser 444 meters, about 500 yards, on a still, breathless evening. First shot missed (my error) second was perfect. That is my longest shot at any game animal.

If I were hunting goats tomorrow then I'd take my R8 in 06 with the 1.5 to 6 fitted and use Federal factory ammo.

Sometimes we Hunters over think things tooooo much. Keep it simple.

Good luck with your hunt.

Rod

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by slugslinger » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:36 am

This is slightly off-topic, but related. You received plenty of good advice on shooting gear, so here's a few thoughts on health.

My buddy got his once-in-a-lifetime Mountain Goat tag this year in Colorado. He actually lives at over 8000 ft of elevation, and the ~1200 ft altitude where he found his Goat was somewhat stressful even for him. I don't suggest that I know your physical fitness or the elevations you will hunt in BC, but "altitude sickness" affects people very differently, and some that are in very good shape. Try to get to at least partial elevation at a few days prior to the hunt, and stay very very hydrated and rested (also avoid alcohol :doh: ). You might also want to see your doctor regarding any personal health issues, especially cardiac or pulmonary. He/she might be able to prescribe some meds for trip preparation or at the onset of symptoms.

The most common and mildest form is AMS (Acute Mountain Sickness) which I have seen too may times in my 23 year career as a Colorado fly fishing guide. The others (HAPE and HACE) are less common but more severe.

The typical scenario I have seen is the arrival of a group from near sea level. They check in to the hotel and party until late. I pick them up early the next morning to go fishing, and they are tired, hungover, dehydrated, and not accustomed to altitude. 90 minutes later, they are at 9000 feet elevation with a fly rod, and feeling nausea, headache, dizziness, etc.
Conversely, I also took out a gentleman from Montana who was accustomed to altitude, and in good shape, (and without the "party syndrome"), and he suffered AMS at only 9000 ft of elevation - we had to retreat to the hotel at 6500 ft.

Just some general guidance so you can focus on the fun part of your trip - good luck! I understand BC is beautiful.

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by secondtry » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:10 pm

Very good point slugslinger. And very good info. :)

I have never considered altitude sickness in the context of hunting, and have hunted only to around 10000 ft, which was no problem for me.

But your post reminded me that I did get altitude sickness at around 14000ft on a non hunting trip. I was able to shake it (without Diamox) within few hours, but it would completely ruin a hunting trip if you suffered from it and couldn't shake it.

Extremely debilitating and well worth taking into account when planning a high altitude trip.

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by MM » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:06 pm

I have been busy with family,holidays etc. but have read and re-read this many times. I feel confident with 95% of the shot scenarios I will be presented with but want to prepare for the 5% outside the bell curve.
1. I have good boots and I got new insoles so I can put the miles in.
2. Hired a trainer and am scheduled for 3 workouts a week
3 got a magnetospeed for Christmas so I can more accurately develop my load
4 found some cardboard deer cutouts on amazon to do some field shooting
5 I have a bulldozer hired to clear some shooting lanes out past 300 yards
So this is hunting and I like to get close but this is a high dollar hunt with limited time for me so I want to prepare for anything. My K95 I feel is up to the task and I purchased it to hunt with. That being said when back packing in I can put it in my pack and I have a solo hunter gun cover to protect it. If it gets nicked or scraped from there so be it. I am going to start practicing with my 165 Nosler partition load because I know it and adjust from there. My first elk hunt I practiced long range shooting and shot my elk at 15 yards, an exciting story for another day. My chamois was shot at 242 yards and was my only chance but could have easily been much further. So I am preparing for the worst and expecting the best as my father used to say. Once I start shootings I may get a different scope with turrets or take two scopes I just don’t know yet. Going to doctor to talk about altitude sickness and prevention. I appreciate all the good advice from the Buds.
Matt

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by Rod » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:17 pm

Looks like your going to hit the bush very well prepared. :handgestures-thumbup:

Good luck with the hunt.

Rod

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by secondtry » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:15 am

Looking good :)

I ALWAYS take two sighted in scopes on Talley screw lock detachable mounts when I am far from home. My travelling rifle has no open sights, but even if it did, they would not be of much use to me, particularly when compared to a scope..

Even easier to set this up with a Blaser.

Naturally, I have never needed the spare :lol:, but I don't intend to change this part of my preparation.

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by Rod » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:27 am

secondtry wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:15 am
Looking good :)

I ALWAYS take two sighted in scopes on Talley screw lock detachable mounts when I am far from home. My travelling rifle has no open sights, but even if it did, they would not be of much use to me, particularly when compared to a scope..

Even easier to set this up with a Blaser.

Naturally, I have never needed the spare :lol:, but I don't intend to change this part of my preparation.
For O/S hunts my Blaser has scope, Aimpoint H1, and iron sights...plus spare trigger/magazine and spare boltcarrier/bolt head. :think: Plus every round that I take has been fed through the magazine and chamber just to make sure they feed & fit. :roll:

Rod

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by secondtry » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:20 pm

MM - Re the 165 Partition load:-

With conventional hunting bullets (as opposed to ELDMs and TMKs), may I suggest that you consider the 165 Ballistic Tip for this hunt ?. The Partition is a proven performer, but the BT will definitely increase your chances of stopping your goat on the spot. Flight distances will be shorter with the BT.

This was explained to me by a Kiwi guide with many years of experience who had seen shot, or shot,100s (maybe 1000s) of thar. Many of these with BTs and NPTs. He was quite knowledgeable about rifles, bullets, and ballistics.

I have never seen a goat, but they appear similar to tahr.

My own experience on a comparitively small sample of bull tahr confirms his advice that the BT will stop them quicker than the Partition.

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by deerhunter338mag » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:11 pm

MM wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:06 pm
I have been busy with family,holidays etc. but have read and re-read this many times. I feel confident with 95% of the shot scenarios I will be presented with but want to prepare for the 5% outside the bell curve.
1. I have good boots and I got new insoles so I can put the miles in.
2. Hired a trainer and am scheduled for 3 workouts a week
3 got a magnetospeed for Christmas so I can more accurately develop my load
4 found some cardboard deer cutouts on amazon to do some field shooting
5 I have a bulldozer hired to clear some shooting lanes out past 300 yards
So this is hunting and I like to get close but this is a high dollar hunt with limited time for me so I want to prepare for anything. My K95 I feel is up to the task and I purchased it to hunt with. That being said when back packing in I can put it in my pack and I have a solo hunter gun cover to protect it. If it gets nicked or scraped from there so be it. I am going to start practicing with my 165 Nosler partition load because I know it and adjust from there. My first elk hunt I practiced long range shooting and shot my elk at 15 yards, an exciting story for another day. My chamois was shot at 242 yards and was my only chance but could have easily been much further. So I am preparing for the worst and expecting the best as my father used to say. Once I start shootings I may get a different scope with turrets or take two scopes I just don’t know yet. Going to doctor to talk about altitude sickness and prevention. I appreciate all the good advice from the Buds.
Matt
Sounds like your doing your best to be prepared as much as you can Matt. Very smart move. :clap: Once your shooting lanes are set up practice as much as you can. More than often you will be caught out in a position you can’t go pron. As a suggestion, I recommend practice shooting off your pack and any other object you can think of that might be at hand. If shooting off rocks light guns tend to jump resaulting in a high shot. So place your pack on the rock and move it around to the best position for the shot. If you need more hight in your pack, I just chuck anything in the pack to get the hight right. Don’t be shy to practice on crappy days as well. If you have some area that you can safely shoot across gully’s, I suggest to do that as them up drafts can make the projectiles do funny things. Don’t be shy to try a few ridiculous shots as well past the distance you think you might be shooting. Been prepared really adds to your confidence and trying to fine tune you skills is a lot of fun.

This was when I was practicing for NZ if I needed to take a shot over 800m with the R93 300wm. Regardless of the weather I would be practicing.

https://youtu.be/2ASlXx9jNnc
Measure it, when it’s on the deck

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by sav338 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:45 pm

Very nice, great shooting.
What was the range to the plate ?

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Re: Long Range Shooting (Hunting) Questions

Post by deerhunter338mag » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:47 pm

sav338 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:45 pm
Very nice, great shooting.
What was the range to the plate ?
Just over 800m.
Measure it, when it’s on the deck

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