Terminal Performance

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stokesrj
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:45 am

Thanks,
I'm still working on completing the testing. I'm redoing the 1800 fps tests as when I had a chance to chronograph the 165 grain TGK that was supposed to be going 1800 fps it was in actuality only going 1575 fps. When I chronographed all bullets at the 2600 fps loading of 43.5 grains of IMR8208XBR they were all within 20 fps of each other. I assumed the same would be true at the 2200 and 1800 fps loading but that has not held up to scrutiny. Unfortunately I had to work up a load for each bullet at the lower velocities. That is very time consuming but if it is worth doing, it is worth doing right. Right? The good news is that the 165 TGK does expand somewhat at 1800 fps, not much, but it isn't as bad as the bullet pictured above. So now I'm in the process of validating all the low velocity tests and will publish them here once I'm done with each bullet.


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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by 9.3x64 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:57 pm

Thanks Bob, a lot of work here, but as you say it's worth doing right if you are going to do it at all.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by SPEEDY » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:26 pm

Not many people and few companies even would go to such detailed effort to test projectiles out.
It's been very informative.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:35 am

I’m now completed testing of seven 308 165/168 bullets at 2600 FPS, 2200 FPS, and 1800 FPS. I need to do some more photography and better organize the information but I have made some observations.

First is that mechanical locking of cores to their jackets don’t work very well across all velocities. It turns out very different than I thought in that bullets tend to shed their jackets from the core more at low velocities than at high velocities, just the opposite of what I thought.

Bonded core bullets tend to produce the narrowest wounds at all velocities and downright horrible performance at low velocity.

Heavy jackets tend to perform erratically and some times result in shallow penetration. Good short range, poor long range.

Thin non tapered jackets do much better than I expected with the widest wound and adequate penetration for broadside rib cage shots but probably not very good for shoulder shots.

The Nosler Ballistic Tip is a much better bullet than I believed it to be. Some times a bad experience taints your thinking even when you know the design has changed. It’s best to keep an open mind.

The Nosler Partition is still probably the very best bullet design available for use at 500 yards and less.

If you are relying on shock effect you better use something other than a short barreled 308, like a 300 Win Mag and keep the range short.

I’ll post full info when I get back from my Javelina hunt in a couple of weeks.

Any of these bullets can produce quick kills if you understand how they perform and use them accordingly.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by robban.jagaren » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:59 pm

Thank you for sharing!

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by 9.3x64 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:35 pm

Real interesting Bob, just goes to show that no one bullet does it all and tough bullets that have a reputation for deep penetration is only half the story.
It's interesting that the old RWS H-Mantel design is still the best bullet under 500 yards from the results of your test.
Thankyou for your time .
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by SPEEDY » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:22 pm

That is a lot of time and effort but it's appreciated by the majority of us here, it does help a lot to understand about how various bullets kill, what's really funny is it seems to line up with what I've been saying for years, with some interesting new developments.

You actually have me rethinking a few things with the 44mag of all things.
This is a 165gn interlock that killed a deer at around 50-60m and was probably doing only 1400-1500,fps when it hit, it was built for the 444 marlin but at 44mag velocity the core separated and it managed 90-95% weight retention, but you can see the lock rings on the pill and how little effect they really had especially in tougher lead like this.
15494118730060.jpg
I'm thinking that I might switch to the 165gn flex tip for good expansion at 44mag speeds but plenty of strength to keep most of the bullet together.

But that's why I'm a fan of the Nosler bullets, the BT will expand at any range and in the bigger pills in the 165gn range even if they shed a lot of weight there's plenty of core left to punch through and they are always accurate.
The partition however is practically perfect, if they ever make a tipped partition then that will be a true game changer, but that partition gives you about a 60% weight retention with lots of explosive damage and plenty of core for penetration.

I got to thank you Bob, that helps clarity my 270 short barrel question, the 160gn partition is the perfect pill for me, it always expands and always holds together regardless of the speed it hits at within reason.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:30 pm

It will become even more clear when I’m able to post all the penetration depths retained weight and pictures. I used to think that when a bullet shed it’s jacket it was kind of a failure. Now I think about when it shed it’s core and what kind of job did it do more than if it shed or not.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by SPEEDY » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:37 pm

Dead is dead, but understanding what your bullet is capable of will let you know where you can put it and that will always result in more game on the ground.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by 9.3x64 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:39 pm

stokesrj wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:30 pm
It will become even more clear when I’m able to post all the penetration depths retained weight and pictures. I used to think that when a bullet shed it’s jacket it was kind of a failure. Now I think about when it shed it’s core and what kind of job did it do more than if it shed or not.
Yep, totally agree.
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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by secondtry » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:18 pm

9.3x64 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:35 pm
Real interesting Bob, just goes to show that no one bullet does it all and tough bullets that have a reputation for deep penetration is only half the story.
It's interesting that the old RWS H-Mantel design is still the best bullet under 500 yards from the results of your test.
Thankyou for your time .
Nice to see that I'm not the only person who thinks that John Nosler simply re-invented the wheel :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by 9.3x64 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:20 pm

secondtry wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:18 pm
9.3x64 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:35 pm
Real interesting Bob, just goes to show that no one bullet does it all and tough bullets that have a reputation for deep penetration is only half the story.
It's interesting that the old RWS H-Mantel design is still the best bullet under 500 yards from the results of your test.
Thankyou for your time .
Nice to see that I'm not the only person who thinks that John Nosler simply re-invented the wheel :lol: :lol: :lol:
:clap:
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Hunt with a German Shorthaired Pointer.

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by Rifletuner » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:02 pm

stokesrj wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:05 am

I have the 165 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip and Accubond already in hand to test and the A-Max is no longer made but the ELD Match is the same bullet other than the tip material. I've done some of the mid velocity testing but I'm still having a heck of a time with the low velocity testing most of these bullets seem to act as solids and penetrate all three of my 16" ballistic gel blocks and keep on going if the velocity is under 2,000 FPS. So finding that minimum velocity of expansion is tough, expensive and time consuming.
For some reason, the 168gn 30 cal Amax is still pretty readily available here in Aus as the Zmax. I recently bought 4 500 round boxes of Zmax 168gn projectiles for my 308 win at very reasonable price. I dont know if it is something Hornady does just for sale outside of their local market in the USA. I guess the green coloured tips of the Zmax hold up better than the red tips of the Amax? :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by Rifletuner » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:10 pm

mchughcb wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:39 am
Great work there Bob. Here are the only Woodleigh 65C RNSP 220gr that I have recovered from a few hundred sambar. If these are the recovered ones then its fair to say that the ones that exited looked something like that too. Ranges are from 50m to 250m at all angles. If you read the list down then and the picture across then the weights correspond to the bullet. The last bullet is a 7mm Hornady interlock from my 7x57R into a Sambar front on at 80m. Retained weight was only the core at 38gr or 22%.

Woodleigh_65C_Sambar_Performance.JPG
Hi Charles. Thats great info. Any idea what velocity range your 220gn load is actually doing at the distances you are shooting? Just wondering because I have been thinking about trying the 220gn Woodleigh in my 308win based on your experience with that bullet on sambar from your 3006. Most people I have discussed it with tell me the bullet will be "too slow" from a 308 but I am not so sure that wold be the case. Certainly not what I would use for longer ranges, but based on your reported results I am thinking it could be a good option out to 200 yards or so.

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Re: Terminal Performance

Post by mchughcb » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:10 pm

Starting at 2400fps at 200 yards its still above 1900 fps. So 250 fps would be the max to get reliable expansion. You may not be able to get those velocities in 308 but dropping down to 200gr might be better.

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