Terminal Performance

A place to discuss subjects related to those who prefer to take those longer shots. Sponsored by European Long Range Hunting and EuroOptic

Moderators: deerhunter338mag, stokesrj, trazman

Post Reply
User avatar
stokesrj
Moderator
Posts: 4976
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
Location: USA
Location: Mesa AZ, USA

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:15 pm

Nosler #3165 .308" 165 Ballistic Tip.

Diameter - .308"
Weight - 165 grains
Length - 1.300"
Base to Ogive - .670"
G1 BC - .445
Jacket Thickness - .070"- .020"
Tip Diameter - .140"
Hollow Point Diameter - .010"

2600 FPS
Penetration - 28.75"
Retained Weight - 120.4 grains
Retained Weight % - 73%
Core Separation - No

2200 FPS
Penetration - 24"
Retained Weight - 60.2 grains
Retained Weight % - 36.5%
Core Separation - Yes

1800 FPS
Penetration - 27.5"
Retained Weight - 63 grains
Retained Weight % - 38.2%
Core Separation - Yes
fullsizeoutput_3cc7.jpeg
The Nosler 165 grain Ballistic tip is another bullet that surprised me with better than expected performance. Even though the jacket was shed at both 2200 fps and 1800 fps it is misleading because the very thick jacket which weighs about the same as the core traveled along with the core for almost the entire wound track. There was high shock at all velocities and adequate penetration to insure an exit on a broadside deer sized game animal. It is a good choice for traditional hunting ranges and usable at long range although I would prefer one of the softer match bullets beyond 500 yards.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Robert J Stokes

User avatar
stokesrj
Moderator
Posts: 4976
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
Location: USA
Location: Mesa AZ, USA

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:28 pm

Nosler #55602 .308" 165 grain Partition.

Diameter - .308"
Weight - 165 grains
Length - 1.315"
Base to Ogive - .670"
G1 BC - .475
Jacket Thickness - .075"- .020"
Tip Diameter - .140"
Hollow Point Diameter - .010

2600 FPS
Penetration - 28.75"
Retained Weight - 120.4 grains
Retained Weight % - 73%
Core Separation - No

2200 FPS
Penetration - 24"
Retained Weight - 151.4 grains
Retained Weight % - 91.94%
Core Separation - No


1800 FPS
Penetration - 34"
Retained Weight - 136.3 grains
Retained Weight % - 82.6%
Core Separation - No
fullsizeoutput_3ccb.jpeg
The Nosler 165 grain Accubond performed well at close range but failed miserably at long range. This was a great disappointment to me. I had high hopes that this bullet would perform across the range of velocities tested but it didn't. At 1800 fps the nose section broke off and the bullet turned base first around 2" making a caliber diameter wound path the rest of the way. This would surely result in a slow kill.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Robert J Stokes

User avatar
stokesrj
Moderator
Posts: 4976
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
Location: USA
Location: Mesa AZ, USA

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:50 pm

Hornady #30452 .308" 165 Super Shock Tip.

Diameter - .308"
Weight - 165 grains
Length - 1.275"
Base to Ogive - .655"
G1 BC - .447
Jacket Thickness - .040"- .020"
Tip Diameter - .130"
Hollow Point Diameter - .009"

2600 FPS
Penetration - 27"
Retained Weight - 124.7 grains
Retained Weight % - 75.6%
Core Separation - No

2200 FPS
Penetration - 24.25"
Retained Weight - 110.9 grains
Retained Weight % - 67.2%
Core Separation - Yes


1800 FPS
Penetration -25.5"
Retained Weight - 72.9 grains
Retained Weight % - 44.2%
Core Separation - Yes
fullsizeoutput_3ccd.jpeg
The Hornady 165 SST performed well at all ranges tested creating hi shock and adequate penetration to exit a medium game animal on a broadside shot. The interlock ring failed to retain the core at both 2200 fps and 1800 fps, it is just too small, but the jacket did protect the core until it had decelerated to a speed the core could stay together and continue to penetrate sufficiently to provide an exit wound.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Robert J Stokes

9.3x64
Meister der jagd
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:37 am
Location: Brisbane

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by 9.3x64 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:51 pm

That's a very useful post Bob, thankyou for your time and posting.
Very interesting how the Sierra Tipped Game King performed at 2200 fps, yet so well at higher and lower velocities.
That Nosler Partition is reliable under 450 yards, which would be most hunters needs.
Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog.
Hunt with a German Shorthaired Pointer.

User avatar
SPEEDY
Moderator
Posts: 8990
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:50 am
Location: Southern highland- Australia
Location: Albury, NSW, Australia

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by SPEEDY » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:40 am

I definitely like the partition, but I've had great results with the 165gn BT with great accuracy.
I'm soft and I don't care. :dance:

User avatar
stokesrj
Moderator
Posts: 4976
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
Location: USA
Location: Mesa AZ, USA

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:03 pm

Perdizhunter wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:23 pm
In 2017 , I decided to verify SST 180 grains , Field Performance
As I only hunt Wild Hogs , night Hunting using thermal devices , shooting distances are from 30 - 300 meters , and most at 100 meters
I shooted 50 wild hogs ( pure breed ) , biggest 160 kg , and most around 50-60 kg , always aimming shoulder .
My guns : - CZ 550 Varmint Kevlar ( 30 hogs ) SST 180 @ 2650 Ft/seg and a Benelli R1 (20 hogs) same Bullet @ 2550 Ft/sec., both In .308 Win
Every hog with a “hit” , was recovered . Only one running more than 70 meters ( almost a miss , a belly shot.)
Some bullets weren’t recovered . Only one bullet recovered that jacket came apart
SST 180 grains at this velocities Were very effective !!!

I have some pictures of recovered bullets , I”m gonna try to post them

619D06C3-32A9-41B5-A7F8-9DAAE412E367.jpeg

9EC26F11-29D3-4EDB-9ADB-9BBD3EDF7812.jpeg
This is a very good collection of recovered bullets, thanks for sharing. Your recovered bullets look much like the 165 grain SST at an impact velocity of 2600 fps in my tests. At that velocity it penetrated 27" and held jacket and core together. Would you say the penetration depth on hogs is similar to 27" ?
Robert J Stokes

Perdizhunter
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:42 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by Perdizhunter » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:27 am

Hi Robert

I usually aim center of shoulder , and these bullets recovered broke some bones , sometimes spine or ribs . In this case , recover the bullet exiting opposite side , touching or inside the opposite side shoulder shield . Probably less than 27 " ( large male hogs )
Some shots not so centered , the bullet hit only one side rib , passing through hearth , lungs , with a massive damage , and exit the opposite side, without recovering . In this situation more than 27" is real ( large male hogs )

I have a extensive experience with 180 SST -308 win - Wild Hogs . Let me know if you would like to see some pictures of internal damage . I have lots of pictures , but I´m not sure about ethics , posting them here .
Some points to consider about SST : - Fast expansion - drop them on feet . Minimal core separation . Massive damage inside .

Perdizhunter
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:42 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by Perdizhunter » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:20 am

I´m used to shoot only 180 grains bullets . Using SierraGameKing , I noticed more core separation than SST. Good internal damage , looks like less damage than SST. Very good accuracy.
Barnes TTSX is a good bullet , but I have little experience with them, less hogs killed with them . Probably it expands not so much at 308 velocities , because it exits every time . Good accuracy .
Damage is not greater than SST , so I abandoned TTSX . Probably TTSX 180 is better suited for 300 Win Mag velocities .

My 308 Hog Rifles - CZ550 Varmint Kevlar ( now retired lol) , Benelli R1 , Blaser R8 and a Blaser BBF97 . All 308 win .

User avatar
SPEEDY
Moderator
Posts: 8990
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:50 am
Location: Southern highland- Australia
Location: Albury, NSW, Australia

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by SPEEDY » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:07 pm

With monolithic bullets speed is the key, that's why the smaller the calibre the lighter you should go.
I found the 130gn TTSX better then the 165gn in the 308win and 30/06, I've seen heavier Barnes pills in the same calibre just act like FMJ bullets.
I'm soft and I don't care. :dance:

Joe338ST
Meister der jagd
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:32 am
Location: Australia

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by Joe338ST » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:54 am

Amazing workup Bob! A huge thanks. The SSTs appear to have the best consistency in penetration.....
Joe

I hunt, I shoot, I camp, I fish. They are the great reset buttons in my life.

User avatar
stokesrj
Moderator
Posts: 4976
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
Location: USA
Location: Mesa AZ, USA

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:27 am

The SSTs did well, the Nosler BT also performed in a similar manner. There are of course various camps of thought on whether this is good or bad. In general, I think any of these bullets can be reliable killers at sedate 308 velocities. But my thinking on what constitutes a good terminal performance has changed over the years.

I can remember when dressing out deer I killed with my 30-30 Winchester using mostly 170 grain SilverTips that it was really poor bullet performance because I would find bits and pieces of the bullet but nothing like the classic mushroom shown in pictures. I would disregard that it dropped the deer in its tracks and focus instead on the fragmented bullet and blood shot meat. Like many, even most hunters, I slowly gravitated to premium more heavily constructed bullets as the gunwriters suggested I should. I really never put two and two together; that these premium bullets did indeed hold together, they created less bruising of the venison, they almost always provided an exit, but they killed slower unless shot placement was precise to disrupt the CNS. At long range these premium bullets just didn't cut it, they killed way to slow.

I would scratch my head in wonder when contrary ideas surfaced, I remember reading Roy Weatherby stating that his favorite caliber was the .257 Weatherby and that he preferred the 80 grain pointed softpoint loading because it killed quicker than the 100 grain softpoint. I saw a few deer shot with the 80 grain soft point and the basketball sized wound it created with it's grenade like fragmentation. Again I rejected the use of this combination because it had not yet dawned on me that although it threw a lot of venison hamburger in the air at close range that it would perform much better than heavier premium bullets at longer ranges.

It wasn't until I began focusing on long range bullet performance that I began to understand why most long range hunters preferred match bullets over the premium big game bullets. I really thought it was just for the higher ballistic coefficient and that they put up with the bullet blow up, even when I witnessed several really long range dead right there performances by the Berger VLD's, I didn't understand. Instead I would think that it was very lucky the bullet penetrated deep enough to kill the animal. I still considered it a bullet failure if there were fragments everywhere and the core not recovered.

Now my thinking has changed, I no longer look at a fragmented bullet as a failure, especially when it resulted in a quick kill. Adequate penetration along with a rapid loss of mass and loss of momentum is a good thing. It creates shock, and the animal succumbs quicker, often dropping right there, or staggering around before dropping instead of the dead run I've seen so many times with premium big game bullets. I will still use those premium bullets when circumstances dictate their use but for long range I really prefer the thin, strait jacket, polymer tipped match bullets such as the Hornady ELDM or Sierra TMK and will be using them if I expect ranges to be long. I think both the SST and BT are good all around bullets and that the Nosler Partition is really hard to beat at close to moderate ranges but I will never again use them beyond 500 yards or so.
Robert J Stokes

User avatar
SPEEDY
Moderator
Posts: 8990
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:50 am
Location: Southern highland- Australia
Location: Albury, NSW, Australia

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by SPEEDY » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:54 am

I've always preferred a more destructive bullet that holds just enough weight to exit.
I tried premium bullets and found them poorer killers unless as said they hit the right spot, but if they hit at lighting speed then they can do both.
I'm soft and I don't care. :dance:

secondtry
Meister der jagd
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:22 pm
Location: Victoria Australia

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by secondtry » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:18 pm

The one caveat that I would add to Bob's excellent post is "big bones"

I (and most sambar hunters, I think) would emphatically agree that the quicker the deer dies, the better chance of recovering that deer. Meat loss is irrelevant to me if it helps get the animal down quicker.

Unfortunately there there have been many instances of unthinking hunters using potentially quick killing bullets at impact velocities which have not provided sufficient penetration. Hit broadside behind the shoulder and death is quick. Hit on the humerus and there is an unacceptably high probability that the bullet won't make it through the nearside ribs.

It is this unreliable penetration that lead many here to tougher bullets. There is also much bad thinking in evidence when hunters are trying to work out and explain why an animal was lost. NZ tahr seem to me to be an example of too tough bullets contributing to an animal's reputation for toughness.

Whether or not something like a 30 cal 208 Amax/ELDM or the 195 TMK/ELDM at 06 velocities would provide the best of both worlds on Sambar, I do not know. I do know that I would not risk a big bone hit on Sambar with a 168, even at long range. I do plan to try the 195TMK from a 308 in due course, but this will be at ranges over 150yards; unless I get an opportunity for pinpoint placement at closer range.

User avatar
stokesrj
Moderator
Posts: 4976
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:41 pm
Location: USA
Location: Mesa AZ, USA

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by stokesrj » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:09 pm

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that a 165 ELDM and a shoulder shot on a Sambar would not be a wise choice. I should have clearly stated that my comments on effectiveness were aimed at medium deer sized game such as whitetail, mule deer, mountain sheep, and antelope. I believe this class of bullet is adequate for larger game such as elk with proper shot placement such as rear lung shots but I would move to a heavier bullet and heavier construction for close range work on these larger animals.
Robert J Stokes

User avatar
Gun Barrel Ecologist
Moderator
Posts: 4892
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:54 pm
Location: Queensland Australia

Re: Terminal Performance

Post by Gun Barrel Ecologist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:09 pm

I have used the 130g .270 SST on reds, fallow, rusa and a sambar (deliberate neck shot). If they do run they usually collapse within eye sight.

I keep thinking I need a heavier load than the 170g SST for the 8x57IS so I can take it interstate or overseas. Given I’ve larger barrels to choose from I’m not loosing sleep over being behind in load development with the 200g NABs I have sitting on the shelf.

Post Reply

Return to “Long Range Hunting and  Precision Shooting”