Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

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Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by thechamp » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:02 pm

Many of us have watched Remington go down the tubes so this really isn't all the surprising. What I did find surprising is the amount of debt that they are carrying. They are owned by Ceberus Capital Management LP which may well be the problem. Somewhere along the line the concept of producing quality firearms was shelved in exchange for mass marketing junk via Walmart, Cabelas, etc.

The article says they're looking for financing that will allow it to file for bankruptcy. They owe Lazard Ltd $950 million which they are trying to restructure. They missed a coupon payment already. They have another $550 million term loan due in 2019. They have $250 million in bonds coming due in 2020 and they're trading at 16 cents on the dollar. The term loan maturing next year is trading at a discount of 50 cents on the dollar.

Their sales plunged 27 percent in the first 9 months of 2017, resulting in a $28 million operating loss.

The article says that credit rating agencies have warned that their capital structure is unsustainable given it's weak operating performance and significant volatility in the demand for firearms and ammunition.

Hoping someone with an idea of what the company might actually be worth will comment. Owing over a billion and hemorrhaging cash isn't appealing.

IMO this might be the ticket to getting them out from under Ceberus and back into the hands of gun people. Hoping for a solution similar to what happened to Smith & Wesson when Tompkins sold the company for pennies on the dollar to Safety Hammer who's management rebuilt the company and never looked back. Ceberus whored out the Remington name and it caught up with them. Reckon we'll see how this winds up playing out but I'd be happy with a complete BK and let someone else scale the company back in size and focus on quality. Maybe even spin off the Bushmaster and AR market to a new company and let Remington focus on what their original business model was. I recall after the Sandy Hook murders that Ceberus claimed that Remington (with or without Bushmaster - don't recall exactly) was 'for sale'. Appears no one with money was willing to buy the company at the price that Ceberus was wanting. Let Ruger and the off brands have the junk market... :doh: (yeah I know Ruger makes a few good guns too)

Thinking back to the Colt situation I recall that they had been bought and sold a number of times and one article claimed that the new owners had siphoned off the cash and put the company in debt that wasn't sustainable either. Did a quick check and they had filed for bankruptcy in June of 15 and came out of it in January of 16. Article said they completed the restructuring process and came out with solid capital structure, significantly less debt, and much greater financial flexibility. Said they reduced their debt by $200 million and raised $50 million of new capital. Doesn't say how they did it though.


Remington
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/exclu ... spartanntp

Colt
http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/13/news/co ... index.html



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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by Joe338ST » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:26 pm

That is just crazy! How can such a big manufacturer be run to the ground? Absolute mismanagement! The problem is that the owners, chairman and executives who fill their pockets are never held accountable. If a company is not performing you need to make changes..... Seems that the out clause is bankruptcy and then the slate is run clean. But other companies take the brunt and they can be bankrupt also by these massive losses....

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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by Gun Barrel Ecologist » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:37 pm

Precisely how many companies does Remington own? Cerberus own Remington, Remington own Marlin and Bushmaster? :think:

I would have thought a way forward would be sell Marlin to someone with an interest in making quality, sell Bushmaster to... who cares.... and service debt that way?

Unfortunately one can view the M18 as Mausers 783, and Ruger has recently put out a list of discontinued M77 variants in favour of making the American series of plastic rifles, indicating the "Walmart rifle" is a marketlace the big players like to exploit. Just how many buyers are willing to pay extra for blued steel and walnut :think: Then again when I think M700 I think overpriced HB police rigs owned by paper punchers :confusion-shrug:

Over here Remington ammo along with Winchester were the standards to be found on the shelves of most gunshops. Will be interesting to see if they limit ammo production

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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by ebrownw2 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:24 pm

Gun Barrel Ecologist wrote:Precisely how many companies does Remington own? Cerberus own Remington, Remington own Marlin and Bushmaster? :think:

I would have thought a way forward would be sell Marlin to someone with an interest in making quality, sell Bushmaster to... who cares.... and service debt that way?

Unfortunately one can view the M18 as Mausers 783, and Ruger has recently put out a list of discontinued M77 variants in favour of making the American series of plastic rifles, indicating the "Walmart rifle" is a marketlace the big players like to exploit. Just how many buyers are willing to pay extra for blued steel and walnut :think: Then again when I think M700 I think overpriced HB police rigs owned by paper punchers :confusion-shrug:

Over here Remington ammo along with Winchester were the standards to be found on the shelves of most gunshops. Will be interesting to see if they limit ammo production

This shows the huge difference in viewpoints of various brands and their qualities between Different countries and cultures. To me being born and bred here in Oklahoma my perceptions of the future of those three brands would be very very different. Marlin has always been synonymous with “cheap”. Decent firearms but definitely Walmart guns. The Remington brand has always been a slight notch above. Their model 1100 auto loading shotgun has a cult like following and the 870 was always the best selling pump shotgun. And although I always preferred Rugers or Brownings in my pre-Blaser days the model 700 bolt action rifle is undoubtedly the most universally respected bolt action in my neck of the woods. And bushmaster is one of the more popular brands of “black rifles” which I think are by far the best selling type of rifle here in the USA. So I would think it would be every bit as valuable as Remington or probably more just based on demand. They have always commanded a slightly higher price than the cheap ARs which indicates to be they have a reputation for better quality and also higher profit margins.
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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by Gun Barrel Ecologist » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:01 pm

I think it comes down to exposure what the memory holds on to. When I think Marlin I think of their levers which over here are at a premium price point compared to Rossi, Mossberg, Henry etc. They may not be Winchester / Browning (Miroku) quality, but for some reason a scoped 336 has a resale value and following the '94 lacks :think: The 1895 is also out on its own as a cheap .45/70 thumper. I realise I am ignoring their bolt action rimfires which have all the appeal and quality machining finesse of a Savage. I'd expect the rimfires to certainly sell well at Walmart

As for Bushmaster - not even sure if they were sold here prior to 1996 :think:

Remington rimfires certainly a notch above the tubestock Marlins, and the 870 was always held in higher regard than the Mossberg when we were allowed to own one. I'd still take a Beretta over a 1100 though. In the past 20 years I cant think of that many people I know who own and hunt with the traditional walnut 700 :think: M700 HB varmint guns with various go fast bits added yes, plastic stocked SPS's in .375H&H were one of the cheapest ways to get a rifle in this round and sold well for sambar hunting, Plastic ADLs before that, Sportsman 788's before that :think: The Remington 700 might have been respected but I dont know that many people who owned them in traditional form. They seemed to be the rifle you bought and then took to a gunsmith to have modified: Sako style extractor, new firing pin and spring, new trigger, new stock....

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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by 9.3x64 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:00 am

Very disappointing news.
Lets hope some good might come out of it.
Remington may be sold off cheap to a capable owner who knows how to build guns and run a business...mmm now who could that be?
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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by SPEEDY » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:08 am

I too don't understand how big companies can be allowed to get almost a billion in debt, if a mum and pop store gets $100,000 in debt then they get shut down.
A company like Remington you would expect a 100 million down and they should be in arbitration.
But Remington were never a black gun maker, they were a bolt gun maker, they don't even make handguns.

But firearms manufactures should never be owned by non firearms companies, they never understand the market.
That latest snafu of betting on Hillary really cost them, but there will be some bargain R15's hitting the market during the fire sale.
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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by Gun Barrel Ecologist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:21 am

SPEEDY wrote: But Remington were never a black gun maker, they were a bolt gun maker, they don't even make handguns....
They didnt use to that I recall but have diversified recently https://www.remington.com/handguns I have a recollection that the R1 1911's were made for an anniversary after not being manufactured by Remington since WW2 :think:

See what Australia is missing out on :lol:

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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by SPEEDY » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:35 am

Only 4 models so I'm guessing it was more of another disastrous adventure buy the Remington parent company again.
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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by Gun Barrel Ecologist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:01 am

One of the new models looks like a Walther clone :think:

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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by 7x57 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:30 am

It is very regrettable when a company that was synonymous with quality and part of a countries heritage goes this way. My son is about to build a rifle on a fairly new Remington action and while the smith said that he will get it up to spec. he did indicate that doing so today was more involved than in the past. :( :( due to quality control issues.

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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by mchughcb » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:14 am

As i look at my Wembley and Scott shotgun that was made in Turkey after they too went bankrupt im not sure its a bad thing. The shottie is the nicest looking little 20g sxs foe the price. I was told now they are selling Italian bettinsolis rebadged as W&S o/u.

Maybe they can reorganise and focus on a few models of better quality.

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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by thechamp » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:55 am

Few clarifications... Cerberus Capital owns the Freedom Group which consist of the following brands:

Remington
Bushmaster
Advanced Armament
Marlin Firearms
H & R Firearms
Dakota Arms
Para USA
Parker Gun
Tapco
Barnes Bullets
Mountain Khakis

I recall seeing another blip a while back that mentioned additional gun companies but can't find it this morning. Either way they own a chunk of the gun manufacturing business. Wikipedia shows their income in 2016 at $865.1 million. Net income was $18.9 million. 3,000 employees.

Don't recall the year they brought out their handguns but they had them at the Dallas show. IMO they looked about like any other modern 1911. Never heard any actual feedback as to how well they were made.

Agree with GBE that the 700 is a 'core' from which many a decent rifle has been built. You buy it and throw away most of it including the crappy trigger and then spend $2K to $3K building a rifle that doesn't do anything close to what a Blaser R8 can do for the same or less money. Blows my mind but it's done every day in America. The smiths love them because they provide a nice steady income. They sell a Blaser and they make a few bucks and then what? The Remington can be improved upon every time something new comes out... It's a cash cow.

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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by SPEEDY » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:03 am

Blasers can be improved on, trigger upgrades and ah, um a few bipod options and uh um. :think:
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Re: Remington is filing for Bankruptcy

Post by YellowLab » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:38 am

I'm not sure that Remington's problems come as any surprise. As in any other industry, cars, electronics, take your pick, the market decides the winners and losers in a perfect world. The US car makers thought they could keep making crap and then they had a near death experience. As in the auto industry there is intense competition and too many firearm manufacturers chasing too few customers. It is a bit sad to see though, my family has some Remington shotguns that are 50 plus years old that are still performing well.

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