The .308 Winchester for Long Range

A place to discuss subjects related to those who prefer to take those longer shots. Sponsored by European Long Range Hunting and EuroOptic

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by Gun Barrel Ecologist » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:05 am

Thanks Secondtry, I've just waded in to reading up on 7mm08 vs .308 Ballistics remembering that kiwi's have a peculiar affection for this round for both in both the North Island for shots at sneaky sika deer and on the south for tahr.

If you believe what's easily found on the net the 7mm08 with a 160 at 2700 has a whopping 84 fp kinetic energy advantage with 4 more inches less drop and wind drift at 600 yards than a 165g from a .308 at the same muzzle velocity. Oh, and that 5g difference in bullet weight gives you 17.18 foot-pounds free recoil against 17.94 f-p in a 7lb rifle....

Now, if you are going to buy a Remington Titanium / Alaskan (whatever their ultralight is now called) or a Kimber Mountain Ascent you'd be hoping the accuracy node with 160g projectiles in the 7mm08 is at 2700fps rather than 2600fps or the above is negated, but hey, at least it will kick less than a .308 :ugeek: :lol: :lol:

To my mind it's once again a situation of comparing cartridges of similar volume throwing similar weight bullets where there is a difference in mean velocity between the two but the SD of velocity overlap. So you have a choice of a) if you picked the faster round you better hope your rifle shoots mean velocity or faster accurately, or b) convince yourself that frontal area is the most important factor on game, or c) convince yourself that if you loose your ammo on a hunt in Poofter's Froth Wyoming they'll have a box of ammo that shoots well in your rifle at the general store because you went with the popular round :lol: :lol: :lol:



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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by SPEEDY » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:18 am

Would that mean that my 308win load of a 168gn Zmax at 2800fps would beat their top 7mm/08 load?
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by Gun Barrel Ecologist » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:55 am

SPEEDY wrote:Would that mean that my 308win load of a 168gn Zmax at 2800fps would beat their top 7mm/08 load?
Yep, but I'd say it also recoils more :lol:

Now here's a question; does the extra steel in a 7mm08 barrel of the same profile barrel as a .308 make up for the difference of say 5g per bullet in a fully loaded magazine making both a .308 & 7mm08 R93 weight the same, and hence make the recoil comparison valid :think: :liar:

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by secondtry » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:16 am

Lost my post - again :(

GBE - the only place that you will get 2700 from a 160 out of a 7.08 is on the internet.

I have loaded for two 7.08s and 2600 with 160s was a hard stretch. It seemed to me that achieving claimed bullistics was easier with the 308 than the 7.08.

The 308 may be a simpler path to the LR goal but the 150ELDX (and maybe the 150LRAB) piqued my interest in the 7.08 as a lighter recoiling alternative to the established 308. I'd be hoping for 2700 from either of those projectiles - not much different from what could be expected from a 168g 308 load.

And yes, the 7.08 does, in general terms, recoil less than the 308; although that is a question that can be bullistically manipulated to provide whichever answer is desired. Shooting a lightweight rifle in either calibre, prone, over a pack, the 7.08 is nicer - recoil wise.

Certainly tahr, chamois, and reds are toast for either with appropriate projectiles, and high BCs should stretch the toasting range quite a bit. 500yds would be plenty for my skill level - well within the 600/800 envelope referred to by Bob and Nathan Foster.

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by Gun Barrel Ecologist » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:52 am

I've cut and pasted into a new thread http://www.blaserbuds.com/forum/viewtop ... 84&t=15296 but it might need one of the mods from this section to clean it up

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by stokesrj » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:05 am

It's fine with me to leave this part of the conversation here. I'll continue with my findings with the .308 as I now have bedded the Rem 700 5R and hopefully it will behave.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by stokesrj » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:07 pm

I think I have the Remington 5R bedding issue sorted out. It took me a while as I had to rip the first unsuccessful attempt out ad do it a second time. The results were worth it though as those nasty flyers and double groupings have gone away and I can now see the results of my load tuning.

I shot a load matrix today under beautiful weather conditions, 69 degrees, clear and calm. I was working with the 168 grain ELD-M seated to a COL of 2.750" in Federal cases, that were fully prepped, neck turned, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes deburred, trimmed to 2.000" and case mouths chamfered an deburred. The cases were neck sized only with a .334" bushing in a LE Wilson die. Then a Federal GM210M primer was seated in each case with a K&M hand priming tool.

Charges of Hodgdon 4895 were dispensed with an RCBS ChargeMaster in weights of 43.3, 43.5, 43.7, 44.0, and 44.3 grains and finally the bullets were seated with a LE Wilson micrometer seater in a K&M arbor press. Bullet run out was checked on a Hornady run out gauge and verified at less than .001" for every round.

The matrix was fired at 100 yards from the bench using the Lab Radar chronograph in three shot groups allowing the rifle to cool between each group. The below target was shot beginning with the top left and then in sequence top right, bottom left, bottom right and then center from lightest to heaviest charge.

You can see the groups tightening and then loosening with the sweet spot being the bottom left target which was 43.7 grains, 2658 fps, 19 extreme spread and 9.7 standard deviation. The group measures .284 center to center and the average of all five groups is .5188" or .4955 MOA, a true 1/2 MOA rifle with five different charges.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by SPEEDY » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:27 pm

Nice to see your efforts rewarded, I will have to see when my local range opens so I can spend some time behind the offroad.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by secondtry » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:09 am

Gotta be happy with that :)

And you might have saved me some leg work with your bedding issues, because that double grouping would have led me to suspect some stress in the barrel re- arranging itself, but clearly that was not the case. Bedding is nearly the last thing to check on my problem child.

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by SPEEDY » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:44 am

Before shooting a rifle for the 1st time I used to always adjust my trigger, then play with my bedding, then I would torque my bedding screws and lap and torque my scope rings.
A little Loctite 243 on all the screws too for that matter.

I never had a rifle that went over an inch and most that would do a 1/2" by the time I settled on a load.
Even my model seven would shoot a half inch, until I decided to float the barrel.
FYI on thin barrels a little forend pressure point is essential.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by stokesrj » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:58 am

I've owned dozens of Remington model 700 and a half dozen model 7 rifles. Not one of them would shoot a half MOA without work. It is a great platform but I think you are further ahead buying an action and building the rifle yourself if you want a true long range rifle. My requirements are 1/3 MOA for 800 yards and beyond and that requires some doing. I think I can achieve that with this rifle.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by Scotch_egg » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:24 am

It’s not a group unless there are 5 rounds down :D

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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by SPEEDY » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:33 am

They take work, but luckily they are easy to work on.
I never bought a replacement trigger but would strip them down and polish every surface.
Funny thing is the model seven has a slightly different safety set up so if you buy an after market trugger for an M700 you still need to swap parts over.
But the easiest rifle to work on by far was my offroad, open the channel up for a match barrel, put on a tactical bolt knob and it was set.
Although a stud for a Harris bipod took all of 3 min and swapping the trigger for a Bix'n Andy took even less time, and neither was really needed but have made it better to shoot.
Although I don't compete and don't need any better then 1/2" for LR fun shooting or a bit of fun at the range.
Although I'm still to find the local range, I must get on that ecen if it means joining the much hated SSAA.

Although I'd like to turn my 77/44 into a 200m gun just for fun, but I've tweaked it enough for that already.
But I'm still thinking about putting a new barrel on it just for fun.
But considering the price of 44mag ammo I might as well get a nice, light knock around 308win instead.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by stokesrj » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:48 am

Scotch_egg wrote:It’s not a group unless there are 5 rounds down :D
I agree but that target is 15 rounds down :D . The more important aspect to me rather than three or five round groups, it is after all a long range big game rifle, is how it performs from a cold clean bore and from a cold fouled bore. Luckily this one puts them in the same hole warm or cold, clean or fouled, after the bedding job. It was not dependable first shot before. Below is a pic of a three shot group from a cold (first shots of the day) fouled bore.
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Re: The .308 Winchester for Long Range

Post by stokesrj » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:51 am

The above were also the first three shots through my ThunderBeast Ultra 7 moderator....pure fun.
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